Australian Politics Forum - The question about a voice will be asked...

Karnal

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #255 - Aug 1^st, 2022 at 8:40pm

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 8:16pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 7:58pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 7:01pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 6:51pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 6:32pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 5:26pm:

https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/whatsapp/2...

Oh, dearie, dearie, me. Terrified of the Australian people making a Just decision, are we? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

What decision might that be, Sleepy Cockwomble? Too afraid to say?? Make an INFORMED decision about how they want to be governed?

Just so. It's the price one pays for not doing the job properly and signing a treaty.

Ask Sir Reggie. He had to give away the entire Middle East.

Ungrateful Khunts. They dont even have the decency to leave a courteous calling card.

That's the tinted races for you. Correlation not causation, no?

Very stupid gibberish, khunt. The constitution, the political system, representation, making laws - and amending them - are a real, actual matters for now, for all of us and will require an actual decision from us, here, now.

Your carrying on like a Lidia Thorpe is just acting like a silly bint.

Oh, I see. So when did the silly old Kiwis sign the Waitangi Treaty, dear boy? When did the Cannacks sign the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement, followed by 25 subsequent native treaties?

That's a question. Short answer.

Short answer? They are still fvccered - sorry, fvccered one. Coz Aborigines wouldn't understand what you are saying without sticking c'one' after every noun. That's how stupid and condescending you, the McGowans and all the other Bwianesque bozos are.

A treaty is pointless with people who you choose to drink themselves to death, rape, monster and beat their cousins and wives and run riot against some ever so slightly different clan or tribe in their remote shitehole 'sovereign' kingdoms. You can't 'treaty' people into sensible lives. It has to come from them. Elders, past and present, eh?? Where are they when you need respectable and effective leadership? Oh, they are passing the hat around at the 'welcome to country' ceremonies in the big cities. Righto - what's their name then??

Nobody has been fvccered around and untreaty- treated worse than the Joos. What do they do? Go to school and excel and assimilate into every culture, the bastards. How terrible is that!!! NO TREATY - but still doing well! Unforgivable. The Germans and Europeans certainly never forgave them for it.

The Joos treatied themselves into the nation state of Israel, dear boy. Do you have a state for your good people?

I'm curious. Which country gives you a passport?

And how do you treat your Boongs?

You know, as a libera... Ahem, liber.... Excuse I, a civilised Western liberal.

There. I knew it would get out in the end. Superior culture, innit.

It helps to lean on the L, no?

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Frank

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #256 - Aug 1^st, 2022 at 8:51pm

Karnal wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 8:40pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 8:16pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 7:58pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 7:01pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 6:51pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 6:32pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 5:26pm:

https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/whatsapp/2...

Oh, dearie, dearie, me. Terrified of the Australian people making a Just decision, are we? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

What decision might that be, Sleepy Cockwomble? Too afraid to say?? Make an INFORMED decision about how they want to be governed?

Just so. It's the price one pays for not doing the job properly and signing a treaty.

Ask Sir Reggie. He had to give away the entire Middle East.

Ungrateful Khunts. They dont even have the decency to leave a courteous calling card.

That's the tinted races for you. Correlation not causation, no?

Very stupid gibberish, khunt. The constitution, the political system, representation, making laws - and amending them - are a real, actual matters for now, for all of us and will require an actual decision from us, here, now.

Your carrying on like a Lidia Thorpe is just acting like a silly bint.

Oh, I see. So when did the silly old Kiwis sign the Waitangi Treaty, dear boy? When did the Cannacks sign the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement, followed by 25 subsequent native treaties?

That's a question. Short answer.

Short answer? They are still fvccered - sorry, fvccered one. Coz Aborigines wouldn't understand what you are saying without sticking c'one' after every noun. That's how stupid and condescending you, the McGowans and all the other Bwianesque bozos are.

A treaty is pointless with people who you choose to drink themselves to death, rape, monster and beat their cousins and wives and run riot against some ever so slightly different clan or tribe in their remote shitehole 'sovereign' kingdoms. You can't 'treaty' people into sensible lives. It has to come from them. Elders, past and present, eh?? Where are they when you need respectable and effective leadership? Oh, they are passing the hat around at the 'welcome to country' ceremonies in the big cities. Righto - what's their name then??

Nobody has been fvccered around and untreaty- treated worse than the Joos. What do they do? Go to school and excel and assimilate into every culture, the bastards. How terrible is that!!! NO TREATY - but still doing well! Unforgivable. The Germans and Europeans certainly never forgave them for it.

The Joos treatied themselves into the nation state of Israel, dear boy.

After 2000 years. ANd aren't they reviled for it!!!

Importantly, they were NOT drinking themselves to death, raping and monstering each other for those two millennia.
Culture, innit. Learning. Excellence. Application. Effort. No treaty.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #257 - Aug 1^st, 2022 at 9:22pm

Gnads wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 8:58am:

Yeah & none of the corrupt ATSIC officials did any time either.

The point is we need successful employment schemes like the former CDEP*** to act as bridges to employment
when/if it become available, in the current neoliberal NAIRU economy....an economy that relies on unemployment to control inflation, such is neoliberalism's bastardry.

*** "The Howard government began dismantling CDEP in 2004 despite official statistics and case studies that demonstrated its benefits for Indigenous individuals, communities and organisations".

Howard should have been sacked and forced onto the dole. just as he forced those aboriginal workers onto the dole.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #258 - Aug 1^st, 2022 at 9:37pm

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 12:27pm:

On the weekend, the Prime Minister unveiled possible wording that may be put to Australians: “There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander voice. The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander voice may make representations to parliament and the executive government on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. The parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to the composition, functions, powers and procedures of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander voice.”

If the Liberals were focused on today’s principles, not tomorrow’s minutiae, they would point out that inserting a comma and two additional words is critical: namely the words “and abolition” after “procedures”. That way, any untested race-based body is subject to parliament. That is the core feature of our system of government.

It would also be critical to delete the words “and the executive government” from the proposed second sentence. Voice activists have spoken about a “voice to parliament” arguing that commenting on proposed bills before parliament is modest in scope.

Extending the reach of this body to everything done by executive government means it could permanently second-guess everything that passed across the desk of ministers or public servants. This extension is an act of massive overreach that will radically change our system of government.

The only safe way to ensure this novel Indigenous body does not become a governance disaster of unholy scale is to give parliament the ultimate control to abolish it.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/libs-left-limp-as-voice-poses-legal-nightmare/news-story/aaaa60d52dfb2d8a41d936231fcc8caa

Good post.

Re the words, "and abolish" - perhaps not necessary because obsolete provisions in a constitution can be excised eg when the voice is no longer required because assimilation into the general electorate's voice has been achieved eg when 'the gap' no longer exists.

But yes, the voice should not be directed to executive government, but to parliament, because all voices should be heard by the parliament, but the executive party is elected to govern.

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« Last Edit: Aug 1^st, 2022 at 9:46pm by thegreatdivide »

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Frank

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #259 - Aug 1^st, 2022 at 9:38pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 9:22pm:

Gnads wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 8:58am:

Yeah & none of the corrupt ATSIC officials did any time either.

The point is we need successful employment schemes like the former CDEP*** to act as bridges to employment
when/if it become available, in the current neoliberal NAIRU economy....an economy that relies on unemployment to control inflation, such is neoliberalism's bastardry.

*** "The Howard government began dismantling CDEP in 2004 despite official statistics and case studies that demonstrated its benefits for Indigenous individuals, communities and organisations".

Howard should have been sacked and forced onto the dole. just as he forced those aboriginal workers onto the dole.

What ARE the jobs in remote Aboriginal shiteholes that are not being filled?

Why do they need to fly in white people to do the work? Why are Aborigines unemployable there? How would you make them employable?

By forcing them off the grog, off the benefit, taking their kids away from them unless they shape up, etc. Do a Maoist CCP on them, no? None of this treating them like responsible, free (dread word, that!!) grown-ups when they obviously can't lead normal lives. Coercive, paternalistic government is what's needed.... Savage, child-like.... tsk, tsk Roll Eyes

i

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Karnal

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #260 - Aug 1^st, 2022 at 9:59pm

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 8:51pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 8:40pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 8:16pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 7:58pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 7:01pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 6:51pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 6:32pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 5:26pm:

https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/whatsapp/2...

Oh, dearie, dearie, me. Terrified of the Australian people making a Just decision, are we? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

What decision might that be, Sleepy Cockwomble? Too afraid to say?? Make an INFORMED decision about how they want to be governed?

Just so. It's the price one pays for not doing the job properly and signing a treaty.

Ask Sir Reggie. He had to give away the entire Middle East.

Ungrateful Khunts. They dont even have the decency to leave a courteous calling card.

That's the tinted races for you. Correlation not causation, no?

Very stupid gibberish, khunt. The constitution, the political system, representation, making laws - and amending them - are a real, actual matters for now, for all of us and will require an actual decision from us, here, now.

Your carrying on like a Lidia Thorpe is just acting like a silly bint.

Oh, I see. So when did the silly old Kiwis sign the Waitangi Treaty, dear boy? When did the Cannacks sign the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement, followed by 25 subsequent native treaties?

That's a question. Short answer.

Short answer? They are still fvccered - sorry, fvccered one. Coz Aborigines wouldn't understand what you are saying without sticking c'one' after every noun. That's how stupid and condescending you, the McGowans and all the other Bwianesque bozos are.

A treaty is pointless with people who you choose to drink themselves to death, rape, monster and beat their cousins and wives and run riot against some ever so slightly different clan or tribe in their remote shitehole 'sovereign' kingdoms. You can't 'treaty' people into sensible lives. It has to come from them. Elders, past and present, eh?? Where are they when you need respectable and effective leadership? Oh, they are passing the hat around at the 'welcome to country' ceremonies in the big cities. Righto - what's their name then??

Nobody has been fvccered around and untreaty- treated worse than the Joos. What do they do? Go to school and excel and assimilate into every culture, the bastards. How terrible is that!!! NO TREATY - but still doing well! Unforgivable. The Germans and Europeans certainly never forgave them for it.

The Joos treatied themselves into the nation state of Israel, dear boy.

After 2000 years. ANd aren't they reviled for it!!!

Importantly, they were NOT drinking themselves to death, raping and monstering each other for those two millennia.
Culture, innit. Learning. Excellence. Application. Effort. No treaty.

I see. So your cunning plan, based on the Joos, is this:

Wait 2000 years for the Boongs to stop drinking themselves to death.

Then, after a suitable period of assessment and if we feel they are ready and appropriately developed, we can sit down to discuss a paragraph in the constitution to acknowledge their existence. That could work.

Grappler, what say you? Do you concur with Frank?

He flew here.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #261 - Aug 1^st, 2022 at 10:08pm

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 9:38pm:

What ARE the jobs in remote Aboriginal shiteholes that are not being filled?

https://insidestory.org.au/making-a-living-differently/

Making a living differently:
The abolition of Community Development Employment Projects has undermined economic renewal in remote Indigenous communities

"Abolishing CDEP was a well-intentioned (my reading: ideological) mistake and CDP is our attempt to atone for it.” So said Tony Abbott** in a recent exchange with journalist Amos Aikman in the Australian. CDEP was the Community Development Employment Projects scheme, which replaced unemployment benefits in a growing number of Indigenous communities after it was launched by the Fraser government in 1977. CDP, or the Community Development Programme, is a work-for-the-dole scheme that pays participants far lower hourly rates than under CDEP.

The Howard government began dismantling CDEP in 2004, despite official statistics and case studies that demonstrated its benefits for Indigenous individuals, communities and organisations. The government’s intention, according to employment minister Joe Hockey, was “to move people off welfare and into ‘real’ employment.” Put this way, his statement misleadingly portrayed CDEP as solely an employment program, ignoring its important role in community development, and erroneously defined CDEP participants as welfare recipients

Now Frank, I know even you are capable of reading and comprehending that last paragraph.

Quote:

Why do they need to fly in white people to do the work? Why are Aborigines unemployable there? How would you make them employable?

Teach them to become builders and teachers, after their communities have sufficiently developed to stand on their own, mentioned as one goal of the CDEP.

Quote:

By forcing them off the grog, off the benefit, taking their kids away from them unless they shape up, etc. Do a Maoist CCP on them, no?

No; by intelligent government intervention,, initiated by successful schemes like the CDEP.

Oh...and by enshrining a voice whose successful policies can't be overturned on ideological grounds.

** Abbott at least bothered to live on the remote camps for some days when he was PM, to try to understand the issues. Hence his recognition it was a mistake for Howard to abolish the CDEP.

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« Last Edit: Aug 1^st, 2022 at 10:28pm by thegreatdivide »

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Frank

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #262 - Aug 1^st, 2022 at 10:19pm

Karnal wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 9:59pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 8:51pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 8:40pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 8:16pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 7:58pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 7:01pm:

Karnal wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 6:51pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 6:32pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 5:26pm:

https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/whatsapp/2...

Oh, dearie, dearie, me. Terrified of the Australian people making a Just decision, are we? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

What decision might that be, Sleepy Cockwomble? Too afraid to say?? Make an INFORMED decision about how they want to be governed?

Just so. It's the price one pays for not doing the job properly and signing a treaty.

Ask Sir Reggie. He had to give away the entire Middle East.

Ungrateful Khunts. They dont even have the decency to leave a courteous calling card.

That's the tinted races for you. Correlation not causation, no?

Very stupid gibberish, khunt. The constitution, the political system, representation, making laws - and amending them - are a real, actual matters for now, for all of us and will require an actual decision from us, here, now.

Your carrying on like a Lidia Thorpe is just acting like a silly bint.

Oh, I see. So when did the silly old Kiwis sign the Waitangi Treaty, dear boy? When did the Cannacks sign the James Bay and Northern Québec Agreement, followed by 25 subsequent native treaties?

That's a question. Short answer.

Short answer? They are still fvccered - sorry, fvccered one. Coz Aborigines wouldn't understand what you are saying without sticking c'one' after every noun. That's how stupid and condescending you, the McGowans and all the other Bwianesque bozos are.

A treaty is pointless with people who you choose to drink themselves to death, rape, monster and beat their cousins and wives and run riot against some ever so slightly different clan or tribe in their remote shitehole 'sovereign' kingdoms. You can't 'treaty' people into sensible lives. It has to come from them. Elders, past and present, eh?? Where are they when you need respectable and effective leadership? Oh, they are passing the hat around at the 'welcome to country' ceremonies in the big cities. Righto - what's their name then??

Nobody has been fvccered around and untreaty- treated worse than the Joos. What do they do? Go to school and excel and assimilate into every culture, the bastards. How terrible is that!!! NO TREATY - but still doing well! Unforgivable. The Germans and Europeans certainly never forgave them for it.

The Joos treatied themselves into the nation state of Israel, dear boy.

After 2000 years. ANd aren't they reviled for it!!!

Importantly, they were NOT drinking themselves to death, raping and monstering each other for those two millennia.
Culture, innit. Learning. Excellence. Application. Effort. No treaty.

I see. So your cunning plan, based on the Joos, is this:

Wait 2000 years for the Boongs to stop drinking themselves to death.

Very stupid, khunt. The Joos were not drinking themselves to death for 2000 years, pining for Israel.

You are EVEN stupider than you are, khunt. You put real effort into being stupid. That must be the inner paki.

Collect 10 rupees.

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Frank

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #263 - Aug 1^st, 2022 at 10:26pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 10:08pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 9:38pm:

What ARE the jobs in remote Aboriginal shiteholes that are not being filled?

https://insidestory.org.au/making-a-living-differently/

Making a living differently:
The abolition of Community Development Employment Projects has undermined economic renewal in remote Indigenous communities

"Abolishing CDEP was a well-intentioned (my reading: ideological) mistake and CDP is our attempt to atone for it.” So said Tony Abbott** in a recent exchange with journalist Amos Aikman in the Australian. CDEP was the Community Development Employment Projects scheme, which replaced unemployment benefits in a growing number of Indigenous communities after it was launched by the Fraser government in 1977. CDP, or the Community Development Programme, is a work-for-the-dole scheme that pays participants far lower hourly rates than under CDEP.

The Howard government began dismantling CDEP in 2004, despite official statistics and case studies that demonstrated its benefits for Indigenous individuals, communities and organisations. The government’s intention, according to employment minister Joe Hockey, was “to move people off welfare and into ‘real’ employment.” Put this way, his statement misleadingly portrayed CDEP as solely an employment program, ignoring its important role in community development, and erroneously defined CDEP participants as welfare recipients

Now Frank, I know even you are capable of reading and comprehending that last paragraph.

Quote:

Why do they need to fly in white people to do the work? Why are Aborigines unemployable there? How would you make them employable?

Teach them to become builders and teachers, after their communities have sufficiently developed to stand on their own, mentioned as one goal of the CDEP.

Quote:

By forcing them off the grog, off the benefit, taking their kids away from them unless they shape up, etc. Do a Maoist CCP on them, no?

No; by intelligent government intervention,, initiated by successful schemes like the CDEP.

** Abbott at least bothered to live on the remote camps for some days when he was PM, to try to understand the issues. Hence his recognition it was a mistake for Howard to abolish the CDEP.

There are untold number of Aboriginal training, employment, welfare, social support programs. All they need is Aborigines to TURN UP for them, COMPLETE them and then WORK.

With all the special assistance given to Aborigines, they should have zero unemployment. ZERO.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #264 - Aug 1^st, 2022 at 10:40pm

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 10:26pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 10:08pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 9:38pm:

What ARE the jobs in remote Aboriginal shiteholes that are not being filled?

https://insidestory.org.au/making-a-living-differently/

Making a living differently:
The abolition of Community Development Employment Projects has undermined economic renewal in remote Indigenous communities

"Abolishing CDEP was a well-intentioned (my reading: ideological) mistake and CDP is our attempt to atone for it.” So said Tony Abbott** in a recent exchange with journalist Amos Aikman in the Australian. CDEP was the Community Development Employment Projects scheme, which replaced unemployment benefits in a growing number of Indigenous communities after it was launched by the Fraser government in 1977. CDP, or the Community Development Programme, is a work-for-the-dole scheme that pays participants far lower hourly rates than under CDEP.

The Howard government began dismantling CDEP in 2004, despite official statistics and case studies that demonstrated its benefits for Indigenous individuals, communities and organisations. The government’s intention, according to employment minister Joe Hockey, was “to move people off welfare and into ‘real’ employment.” Put this way, his statement misleadingly portrayed CDEP as solely an employment program, ignoring its important role in community development, and erroneously defined CDEP participants as welfare recipients

Now Frank, I know even you are capable of reading and comprehending that last paragraph.

Quote:

Why do they need to fly in white people to do the work? Why are Aborigines unemployable there? How would you make them employable?

Teach them to become builders and teachers, after their communities have sufficiently developed to stand on their own, mentioned as one goal of the CDEP.

Quote:

By forcing them off the grog, off the benefit, taking their kids away from them unless they shape up, etc. Do a Maoist CCP on them, no?

No; by intelligent government intervention,, initiated by successful schemes like the CDEP.

** Abbott at least bothered to live on the remote camps for some days when he was PM, to try to understand the issues. Hence his recognition it was a mistake for Howard to abolish the CDEP.

There are untold number of Aboriginal training, employment, welfare, social support programs. All they need is Aborigines to TURN UP for them, COMPLETE them and then WORK.

With all the special assistance given to Aborigines, they should have zero unemployment. ZERO.

Oh dear ...I credited you with the ability to read and comprehend a simple paragraph, but I was wrong. Here it is again:

” Put this way, his statement misleadingly portrayed CDEP as solely an employment program, ignoring its important role in community development, and erroneously defined CDEP participants as welfare recipients

Ie, it was real employment leading to community development, a basic necessary first step.

Your "untold number of Aboriginal training, employment, welfare, social support programs" are mostly CDP 'work for the dole schemes', which Abbott admitted were a failure.

Please improve your comprehension skills.

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Frank

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #265 - Aug 1^st, 2022 at 10:50pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 1^st, 2022 at 10:40pm: