Australian Politics Forum - Ukraine, Russia, Putin

Jasin

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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #975 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 5:22pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 5:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:27pm:

Law, whether national or international, is more than a "document" (...commit a criminal act - and see how you get on in your own country....)

You can't be that naive.

Nothing, except superior resistant force, prevents a belligerent state-actor from intimidating, annexing or invading another state.

Once the state-actor has established itself as the ruling force, as Mao did with Tibet, it becomes the new status quo, which generally will only be challengeable when the ruling state declines or its will to govern declines.

And what would Australia do if China had convinced PNG (or even Solomons) to join their side of expansionism - that they promised never to do? Would Australia 'invade' PNG to stabilise its control on its doorstep?

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #976 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 5:52pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 5:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:27pm:

Law, whether national or international, is more than a "document" (...commit a criminal act - and see how you get on in your own country....)

You can't be that naive.

Nothing, except superior resistant force, prevents a belligerent state-actor from intimidating, annexing or invading another state.

Correct; note, the permanent members of UNSC possess 99% of the world's military force.
The problem is the UNSC veto, supporting the insane doctrine of "legal" war, in the age of MAD.

Quote:

Once the state-actor has established itself as the ruling force, as Mao did with Tibet, it becomes the new status quo, which generally will only be challengeable when the ruling state declines or its will to govern declines.

In Mao's view he was merely reclaiming what he thought rightfully belonged to China, as the US claimed much of Mexico in war.

Quote:

The separate fates of Franco, Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin and Mao are exemplars of those states that declined and failed and those that prevailed within their respective head-of-state natural life times. No jail for Franco, Stalin or Mao despite their crimes.

Hitler and Mussilini died because they lost a war; the others were victorious in war (civil or international)

You forgot to add Xi's name to that list......but wait, Xi has never fought a war....

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15656 Gender:	Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end? Reply #977 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 5:53pm .
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15656 Gender:	Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end? Reply #978 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 5:55pm .
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Jasin

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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #979 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 6:03pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 5:52pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 5:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:27pm:

Law, whether national or international, is more than a "document" (...commit a criminal act - and see how you get on in your own country....)

You can't be that naive.

Nothing, except superior resistant force, prevents a belligerent state-actor from intimidating, annexing or invading another state.

Correct; note, the permanent members of UNSC possess 99% of the world's military force.
The problem is the UNSC veto, supporting the insane doctrine of "legal" war, in the age of MAD.

Quote:

Once the state-actor has established itself as the ruling force, as Mao did with Tibet, it becomes the new status quo, which generally will only be challengeable when the ruling state declines or its will to govern declines.

In Mao's view he was merely reclaiming what he thought rightfully belonged to China, as the US claimed much of Mexico in war.

Quote:

The separate fates of Franco, Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin and Mao are exemplars of those states that declined and failed and those that prevailed within their respective head-of-state natural life times. No jail for Franco, Stalin or Mao despite their crimes.

Hitler and Mussilini died because they lost a war; the others were victorious in war (civil or international)

You forgot to add Xi's name to that list......but wait, Xi has never fought a war....

And yet 'Military' (like Politics and Religion) keeps Europe in the past wether its Britain or Germany. It was a War of the Bad Guys overall.

Europe's future is Sports, Medicine and Music.
Germany beat Italy 5-2 recently.

Military:
Germany - gone.
France - next.
Italy - will be gone too (bye bye Mafia/Vatican)
Britain - last to go.
...after this, Europe will finally be free.

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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Linus Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 471 Gender:	Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end? Reply #980 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 6:15pm I don't know how the Ukraine/Russian situation will end, but these sanctions are backfiring on the rest of the world with higher prices at the gas pump, food shortages, stagflation and a looming recession... Chaos is scratching at the door.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #981 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 6:17pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 5:52pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 5:19pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 4:27pm:

Law, whether national or international, is more than a "document" (...commit a criminal act - and see how you get on in your own country....)

You can't be that naive.

Nothing, except superior resistant force, prevents a belligerent state-actor from intimidating, annexing or invading another state.

Correct; note, the permanent members of UNSC possess 99% of the world's military force.
The problem is the UNSC veto, supporting the insane doctrine of "legal" war, in the age of MAD.

Quote:

Once the state-actor has established itself as the ruling force, as Mao did with Tibet, it becomes the new status quo, which generally will only be challengeable when the ruling state declines or its will to govern declines.

In Mao's view he was merely reclaiming what he thought rightfully belonged to China, as the US claimed much of Mexico in war.

Quote:

The separate fates of Franco, Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin and Mao are exemplars of those states that declined and failed and those that prevailed within their respective head-of-state natural life times. No jail for Franco, Stalin or Mao despite their crimes.

Hitler and Mussilini died because they lost a war; the others were victorious in war (civil or international)

You forgot to add Xi's name to that list......but wait, Xi has never fought a war....

Most modern invaders claim ancient (sometimes mythological) rights to the lands they take by force. It's not as easy to get away with veni, vidi, vici these days.

It's the claim the CCP has duped the Chinese people with over Taiwan.

Yes. Hitler and Mussolini died because superior force prevailed. If signed documents had worked, Hitler and Mussolini might have lived out their natural lives.

Not only has Xi not fought a war, neither has the PLA since 1949; and that was only because Japan had weakened the Chinese nationalists so badly that Mao decided to come out of hiding in the desert to mop up what was left; a fact that Mao verbally acknowledged when he met the first post-war Japanese ambassador, when he thanked Japan for making his rise possible.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #982 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 6:39pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 6:17pm:

Most modern invaders claim ancient (sometimes mythological) rights to the lands they take by force. It's not as easy to get away with veni, vidi, vici these days.

Correct, we have nascent - though still ineffective - international law these days.

Quote:

It's the claim the CCP has duped the Chinese people with over Taiwan.

Well the ROC has only itself to blame; until recently, THEY claimed to be the sole government of One China, as did the UN until the US switched sides in 1972 (to counter the USSR)...

Quote:

Yes. Hitler and Mussolini died because superior force prevailed. If signed documents had worked, Hitler and Mussolini might have lived out their natural lives.

You mean if effective international law (which you dismiss as a mere 'document') had been established after WW1?

Quote:

Not only has Xi not fought a war, neither has the PLA since 1949; and that was only because Japan had weakened the Chinese nationalists so badly that Mao decided to come out of hiding in the desert to mop up what was left; a fact that Mao verbally acknowledged when he met the first post-war Japanese ambassador, when he thanked Japan for making his rise possible.

I think the Chinese communists and nationalists alternately fought one-another, and then combined to fight the Japanese, who seriously damaged both Chinese factions, before they began the civil war again.

But if Mao thanked Japan, that has long been forgotten in Japan which is now a willing US colony in the Western Pacific.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #983 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 7:07pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 6:39pm:

Quote:

Not only has Xi not fought a war, neither has the PLA since 1949; and that was only because Japan had weakened the Chinese nationalists so badly that Mao decided to come out of hiding in the desert to mop up what was left; a fact that Mao verbally acknowledged when he met the first post-war Japanese ambassador, when he thanked Japan for making his rise possible.

I think the Chinese communists and nationalists alternately fought one-another, and then combined to fight the Japanese, who seriously damaged both Chinese factions, before they began the civil war again.

But if Mao thanked Japan, that has long been forgotten in Japan which is now a willing US colony in the Western Pacific.

Mao and his gangsters barely fought the Japanese at all. They all retreated into the hinterland and left the nationalists to it.

Mao was being cynically facetious when he spoke to the Japanese ambassador. Mao was known for his dark and psychopathic sense of humour.

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Jasin

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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #984 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 7:13pm

Linus wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 6:15pm:

I don't know how the Ukraine/Russian situation will end, but these sanctions are backfiring on the rest of the world with higher prices at the gas pump, food shortages, stagflation and a looming recession...

Chaos is scratching at the door.

The sanctions are a red-herring as its really just a Tax increase for the War Chests.
As you can see - War is expensive when its nothing but a video game of blowing up expensive machinery.

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #985 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 7:23pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 6:39pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 6:17pm:

Most modern invaders claim ancient (sometimes mythological) rights to the lands they take by force. It's not as easy to get away with veni, vidi, vici these days.

Correct, we have nascent - though still ineffective - international law these days.

Do you think we could start by telling our kids that the way to deal with the schoolyard bully is to have him sign a contract that commits him pacifism and any transgressions to be mediated by mutually appointed arbiters?

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17122 Gender:	Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end? Reply #986 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 7:25pm thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 6:39pm: Well the ROC has only itself to blame; until recently, THEY claimed to be the sole government of One China, as did the UN until the US switched sides in 1972 (to counter the USSR)... Well, they don't now, so that should be the end of it, right?
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random

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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #987 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 8:43pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 7:23pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 6:39pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 6:17pm:

Most modern invaders claim ancient (sometimes mythological) rights to the lands they take by force. It's not as easy to get away with veni, vidi, vici these days.

Correct, we have nascent - though still ineffective - international law these days.

Do you think we could start by telling our kids that the way to deal with the schoolyard bully is to have him sign a contract that commits him pacifism and any transgressions to be mediated by mutually appointed arbiters?

You know, I'd give that a go, it might be better than ...

What we know about mass school shootings in the US – and the gunmen who carry them out

Published: May 25, 2022 10.52pm AEST Updated: June 6, 2022 10.16pm AEST

"We know that most school shooters have a connection to the school they target. Twelve of the 14 school shooters in our database prior to the most recent attack in Texas were either current or former students of the school. Any prior connection between the latest shooter and Robb Elementary School has not been released to the public."

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So many farkwits, so little time.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #988 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 8:51pm

random wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 8:43pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 7:23pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 6:39pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 15^th, 2022 at 6:17pm:

Most modern invaders claim ancient (sometimes mythological) rights to the lands they take by force. It's not as easy to get away with veni, vidi, vici these days.

Correct, we have nascent - though still ineffective - international law these days.

Do you think we could start by telling our kids that the way to deal with the schoolyard bully is to have him sign a contract that commits him pacifism and any transgressions to be mediated by mutually appointed arbiters?

You know, I'd give that a go

What school did you go to - St Wokefaeries?

After the bully's signed the pact, you can have your kid wave it in the schoolyard yelling 'Peace in our time'.

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Frank

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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #989 - Jun 15^th, 2022 at 10:49pm