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Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end? (Read 42094 times)
MeisterEckhart
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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #960 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:26pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Mar 21st, 2022 at 6:17am:
Despite his disastrous logistical miscalculations, his anger at the Russian military’s strategic incompetence, his shock-and-awe battering by unwavering Ukrainian resistance, his underestimation of the world’s resolve against him, crippling sanctions, his surprise at NATO’s unity and self-control, Europe’s unanimous solidarity with Ukraine, his purging of his inner-circle advisors - indicating paranoia - Putin is rolling the dice for an outcome favouring himself, Russia, and Russia-aligned Ukrainians.

Whatever his presumptions were, from which he has now been rudely disabused, or even what his original objectives were, he appears to now have two goals in mind:

To drive all resistant Ukrainians west by all-out, scorched-earth, destruction of eastern Ukrainian cities, followed by an ethnic cleansing of all remaining non-Russian-aligned eastern Ukrainians.

To impose a partition of Ukraine into east (including Crimea) and west. The former likely to be subsumed into Russia (as opposed to being recognized as the sovereign nation of ‘East Ukraine’).

I’d bet this is the deal that the world will accept, with NATO and Europe tasked with convincing Zelensky of its realpolitik imperative; leaving Zelensky to sell the outcome to Ukrainians.

Partition is now the only best-case scenario for Ukraine.

It appears NATO will not invest in Ukrainian control of the east.
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #961 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:26pm
 
next
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #962 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:27pm
 
and next
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #963 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:27pm
 
and next
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Bobby.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #964 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:32pm
 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10914381/Russia-warns-Europe-disappear-...

Russia warns Europe will 'disappear' in a nuclear apocalypse
if the West gives Ukraine missiles


    Poland's ex-foreign minister Radoslaw Sikorski said the West could arm Ukraine
    He said Russian actions justify the delivery of nuclear weapons to Kyiv
    Russia's Viacheslav Volodin said it would lead to the destruction of Europe
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #965 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:47pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:32pm:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10914381/Russia-warns-Europe-disappear-...

Russia warns Europe will 'disappear' in a nuclear apocalypse
if the West gives Ukraine missiles


    Poland's ex-foreign minister Radoslaw Sikorski said the West could arm Ukraine
    He said Russian actions justify the delivery of nuclear weapons to Kyiv
    Russia's Viacheslav Volodin said it would lead to the destruction of Europe

It's all popcorn for the masses.

Ukraine will not be able to control and govern its eastern lands even if it beat the Russians back to the Russian border; this is what it appears NATO and the west have always known.
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Bobby.
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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #966 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 1:06pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:47pm:
Bobby. wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 12:32pm:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10914381/Russia-warns-Europe-disappear-...

Russia warns Europe will 'disappear' in a nuclear apocalypse
if the West gives Ukraine missiles


    Poland's ex-foreign minister Radoslaw Sikorski said the West could arm Ukraine
    He said Russian actions justify the delivery of nuclear weapons to Kyiv
    Russia's Viacheslav Volodin said it would lead to the destruction of Europe

It's all popcorn for the masses.

Ukraine will not be able to control and govern its eastern lands even if it beat the Russians back to the Russian border; this is what it appears NATO and the west have always known.



Yes - this war will never stop.
Russia will still be there at the end and
always be looking over the fence into Ukraine.
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Frank
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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #967 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 1:15pm
 
athos wrote on May 28th, 2022 at 1:11pm:
Hungary does not allow Europeans to enjoy the fruits of its cooperation with Russia​

In the struggle for survival in the conditions of the economic crisis, the EU no longer looks like an integral association of friendly states. It turns into a club of interests, and if expectations are not justified, then any member of the Union is ready to slam the door in front of Brussels with a sense of satisfaction. Recently, the best way to survive, to overcome the waves of the economic and energy crisis in those eurozone countries that, in spite of everything, cooperate with Russia. It is not customary to speak about this out loud, but this truth is irrefutable.


Hungary "black sheep" clearly stands out among the European countries. As Bloomberg reports, Budapest is strikingly different from all other EU members not only in its political position, but also in energy prosperity, and is not going to allow other European nations to enjoy the beneficial fruits of its cooperation with Russia. The thing is that this successful cooperation becomes possible not thanks to the efforts of the European Commission, but quite the contrary, in spite of it.

For example, the state of emergency introduced on May 25 by Prime Minister Viktor Orban due to the events in Ukraine allowed the government to introduce a number of restrictions, very cynical, although justified in relation to other EU members. In particular, Hungary banned citizens who entered the territory of this state in cars with foreign license plates from refueling at gas stations in the country or participating in a program to limit the cost of fuel.

According to Orban, this is the only way the leadership of the state can take measures to protect its citizens from the consequences of an artificial fuel crisis, the causes of which lie in the aggressive policy of the EU towards Russia. Hungary does not adhere to such a course, opposes it and fully has the right to single-handedly enjoy all the benefits that Moscow provides in the framework of mutually beneficial cooperation. Hungary is not obliged to share with other EU partners.

In addition, Europeans seem to forget about their Russophobia and have recently begun to shamelessly trade in "fuel tourism", pilgrimages to Hungary, coming and buying up all the fuel at bargain prices (no more than one dollar per liter). Of course, the Orban government could not tolerate disregard for its opinion, which must be defended, one has to literally suffer, and at the same time, detractors frankly take advantage of the benefits for which Budapest literally fought with a whole coalition of EU countries.

Smiley


The. EU is the central command ideological heir of the USSR.

Bureaucratic,  arrogant, ideological, ineffectual, sceloric. French statism with German guilt money



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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #968 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 1:57pm
 
Frank wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 11:04am:
https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2022/06/13/the-ukraine-echo-chamber-goes-full-chern...

The lid blew off the Ukraine echo chamber this week as Russian artillery pulverized Ukrainian forces in Donbas. Ukraine has lost 10,000 dead, 40,000 to 50,000 wounded, and 8,000 captured. It is running out of Soviet-era ammunition for its limited artillery. A month ago the whole American body politic, from progressive left to neo-conservatives, drank the victory Kool-Aid. Remember when Russia’s incompetent, corrupt army was about to be swept from the field? As is their wont, the Russians blundered around and took losses for a few weeks before figuring out how to wage an old-fashioned, World War II-style artillery campaign. “It’s been so long since anyone fought a conventional war that they had to remember how to do it,” said a European military observer.
...
We have, in short, another Afghanistan, hatched by the same sort of group-think. Will the miscreants who cooked up this catastrophe face any consequences? Not a chance. There is safety in numbers. Except for a few cranks and oddballs like Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) and your correspondent, every prominent conservative pundit and politician went full Jonestown. Russia’s initial muddle prompted a few weeks of intoxicated triumphalism.

That’s turned into a collective hangover and an orgy of ass-covering. The supposed renaissance of Western unity dissolves into bickering and recrimination. Putin sells oil to China and India at a $30 per barrel discount, while Americans pay more than $5 for gas at the pump.


The US loves supporting one side in proxy wars, so that both sides are weakened, and hopefully (in the US view)  Russia is destroyed .

The war should never have been allowed to begin; under decent international law, the dispute would have been adjudicated by an international court of justice, and enforced by a UNSC without veto.

But you prefer to "die for freedom".... 
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #969 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 2:24pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 1:57pm:
The US loves supporting one side in proxy wars, so that both sides are weakened, and hopefully (in the US view)  Russia is destroyed .

The war should never have been allowed to begin; under decent international law, the dispute would have been adjudicated by an international court of justice, and enforced by a UNSC without veto.

But you prefer to "die for freedom".... 

There is no governing international body or order that prevents belligerent expansionist nations from intimidation, annexation and invasion.

There never could be. Belligerent militaristic regimes commit these acts, then dare their opposition to take them on.

Overreach is what ultimately brings them down.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #970 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 2:32pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 2:24pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 1:57pm:
The US loves supporting one side in proxy wars, so that both sides are weakened, and hopefully (in the US view)  Russia is destroyed .

The war should never have been allowed to begin; under decent international law, the dispute would have been adjudicated by an international court of justice, and enforced by a UNSC without veto.

But you prefer to "die for freedom".... 

There is no governing international body or order that prevents belligerent expansionist nations from intimidation, annexation and invasion.


Exactly, but there SHOULD be....aka international law which everyone pays lip service to when it suits them (ignored by Bush in Iraq). 

Quote:
There never could be. Belligerent militaristic regimes commit these acts, then dare their opposition to take them on.


No ....YOU demand the "right" to "die for freedom". 

That's why you won't outlaw war, even in the age of MAD.  You are literally mad.....

Quote:
Overreach is what ultimately brings them down.


Paranoia - based on "freedom"/rights delusions  of individuals (and nations)   brings them down.

You don't want to accept international law, have the guts to say so.   
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #971 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 3:05pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 2:32pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 2:24pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 1:57pm:
The US loves supporting one side in proxy wars, so that both sides are weakened, and hopefully (in the US view)  Russia is destroyed .

The war should never have been allowed to begin; under decent international law, the dispute would have been adjudicated by an international court of justice, and enforced by a UNSC without veto.

But you prefer to "die for freedom".... 

There is no governing international body or order that prevents belligerent expansionist nations from intimidation, annexation and invasion.


Exactly, but there SHOULD be....aka international law which everyone pays lip service to when it suits them (ignored by Bush in Iraq). 

Quote:
There never could be. Belligerent militaristic regimes commit these acts, then dare their opposition to take them on.


No ....YOU demand the "right" to "die for freedom". 

That's why you won't outlaw war, even in the age of MAD.  You are literally mad.....

Quote:
Overreach is what ultimately brings them down.


Paranoia - based on "freedom"/rights delusions  of individuals (and nations)   brings them down.

You don't want to accept international law, have the guts to say so.   

Shall we outlaw the blueness of the sky while we're at it?

How does a document prevent belligerent militaristic regimes from intimidation, annexation and invasion?

No one agreed with Mao's invasion of Tibet and the young Dalai Lama appealed to the US and India for assistance. Both nations supported Tibet's cause, but could not prevent Mao's murder machine from crushing Tibetans due to a multiple of reasons; remoteness being one problem.

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thegreatdivide
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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #972 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 4:27pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 3:05pm:
Shall we outlaw the blueness of the sky while we're at it?


No; only outlaw the insanity of "legal" war, in the age of MAD....

Quote:
How does a document prevent belligerent militaristic regimes from intimidation, annexation and invasion?


Law, whether national or international, is more than  a "document"  (...commit a criminal act - and see how you get on in your own country....)

Quote:
No one agreed with Mao's invasion of Tibet and the young Dalai Lama appealed to the US and India for assistance. Both nations supported Tibet's cause, but could not prevent Mao's murder machine from crushing Tibetans due to a multiple of reasons; remoteness being one problem.


And the US conquered vast areas of Mexico... long  before the UN proclaimed (but could not defend) 'acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible'.

As for the destroyed (by European powers) Qing empire, a newly emergent post-civil-war unified  China wanted to regain as much of the centuries-old empire as it could, of course (no surprise there....).    


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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #973 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 5:17pm
 
So they vile Trump for taking 'peaceful' solutions and call it collusion with Russia as an evil thing.
Well, then what do you call NASA then when they 'worked with Russia/Russians' up in space for the betterment of all?

Seems the Democrats 'need' Trump to be evil to hide the fact that they have systematically broken the PROMISE made upon the dismantling of the USSR will not ensure 'Expansionism' by NATO.
Oh looky - NATO has expanded ever since and is trying to be on Russia's doorstep.

Seems Trump was a Peace Mongerer, but the Biden administration Democrats have pushed for war instead.
It's obvious that this kind of USA is the kind that needs to 'destroy' the competition at all costs, just to stay afloat.

Nice of the Biden Admin to have heaps of Ukrainian civilians die for their cause. Roll Eyes

How does Australia react when China approaches the Solomon Islands? What if China won over PNG? How would Australia react? Probably like Russia would.

We live in an era where finally, the world is seeing the 'Democrat' USA for what it is - the bad guy.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Ukraine, Russia, Putin – So how does it all end?
Reply #974 - Jun 15th, 2022 at 5:19pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 15th, 2022 at 4:27pm:
Law, whether national or international, is more than  a "document"  (...commit a criminal act - and see how you get on in your own country....)

You can't be that naive.

Nothing, except superior resistant force, prevents a belligerent state-actor from intimidating, annexing or invading another state.

Once the state-actor has established itself as the ruling force, as Mao did with Tibet, it becomes the new status quo, which generally will only be challengeable when the ruling state declines or its will to govern declines.

The separate fates of Franco, Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin and Mao are exemplars of those states that declined and failed and those that prevailed within their respective head-of-state natural life times. No jail for Franco, Stalin or Mao despite their crimes.

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