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Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) (Read 111788 times)
Jovial Monk
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #120 - Apr 10th, 2022 at 6:56am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 9th, 2022 at 11:49pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 9th, 2022 at 4:38pm:
Deficit budgets are the norm and so they should—it increases the size of the economy.

A Budget regularly in surplus is continually taking money out of the economy.

The Great Depression and WWII debt were paid off with no Budget surplus being achieved.


Correct; have you studied MMT?

In fact (simply put),  the government's deficit is the private sector's surplus.


Only a little bit. I did do a year of introductory economics as part of a business course I started but did not finish.

As I said, the Great Depression/WWII debt was paid off without a single surplus Budget.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #121 - Apr 10th, 2022 at 12:39pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 10th, 2022 at 6:56am:
As I said, the Great Depression/WWII debt was paid off without a single surplus Budget.


Yes, it's interesting that Menzies, the 'Liberal' (conservative)  hero,  ran government  deficits in his last 9 years in office.

https://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/menzies-a-failure-by-todays-rules-ran-a-bud...

"Between 1958-59 and 1966-67 (when he retired), Menzies averaged budget deficits of 1.8% of GDP. His biggest deficit of 3.3% of GDP in his final year in office was larger than the last Swan deficit, which the Abbott government has called a “disaster” and a “budget crisis.

So, what was Menzies up to? He clearly wasn’t obsessed with the budget deficits or worried about numbers of public servants that so concern Hockey. The economy grew quite steadily, often growing at more than 6% in real terms. Unemployment was mostly around 2% or less, and only 1.6% when he retired. Over his time in power, you couldn’t even argue that Menzies was trying to balance the budget over the business cycle.

Menzies was interested in nation-building. He not only wanted rapid population growth, but he wanted infrastructure growth and growth in the health and education services that make a society both cohesive and productive".


Those were the days of the post WW2 era when Keynesian spending was the norm, before the disastrous NAIRU neoliberal era was established, owing to erroneous handling of the global oil price spikes in the 70's. 
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Bobby.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #122 - Apr 10th, 2022 at 1:43pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 10th, 2022 at 1:01am:
Bobby. wrote on Apr 10th, 2022 at 12:10am:
Maybe the bankers need to be put on trial?


No, the debt-money system itself needs to be changed, as patiently explained in your video.

Quote:
Note: when Mugabe kicked all the Whites out of
Rhodesia and called it Zimbabwe it went down the toilet?


Mugabe kicked all the white farmers (not bankers)  off their farms (which occupied land stolen  by white colonialists  in the 19th century)....and Zimbabwe "went down the toilet" because the black tenants who were allocated the confiscated farms had no idea how to farm....

Quote:
So getting rid of all those White bankers didn't work.


Nothing to do with the white bankers who were not 'got rid of', - though they like all bankers  are part of an evil debt-money system ravaging the whole world, as explained at length  in your video. 



My point is that resources doesn't necessarily lead to prosperity.
Do you think we should have been a far more prosperous society
given our huge resources with only 26 million people to spend it on?
Wouldn't you expect us to have surplus budgets
and to not be printing money to devalue our currency
and rob the savings of our people through inflation?
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #123 - Apr 10th, 2022 at 2:43pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Apr 10th, 2022 at 1:43pm:
My point is that resources doesn't necessarily lead to prosperity.


And your point is wrong: it's ONLY proper management of resources which can lead to prosperity.

Quote:
Do you think we should have been a far more prosperous society given our huge resources with only 26 million people to spend it on?


I certainly think Australia has all the resources it needs to decently  house, clothe feed and employ everyone of working age.


Quote:
Wouldn't you expect us to have surplus budgets
and to not be printing money to devalue our currency
and rob the savings of our people through inflation?


You need to understand that surplus government budgets (unlike your own household budget)  are  not necessarily associated with growth in living standards; Howard only achieved a surplus because of favourable terms of trade (mostly high iron-ore prices to China).
Compare that with Menzies who  ran deficit budgets - and housed and employed everyone, unlike Howard (see post #121)
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wombatwoody
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #124 - Apr 10th, 2022 at 3:37pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 6th, 2022 at 3:03pm:
Frank wrote on Apr 6th, 2022 at 2:56pm:
You are militantly, vigorously stupid.


You have given up debating, again. Pity.   

Quote:
Poor countries are poor because their governments are just not printing enough banknotes.


No, poor countries are poor because they lack the resources to house, clothe, and feed everyone...or because the First World is stealing their resources for peanuts.


It's called 'privatisation', the selling off of state assets to stave off bankruptcy caused by the bank-created debt. Third World countries are handing over control of their land and resources to the international bankers because they cannot pay back the vast loans made, on purpose, by the banks to ensnare them in this very situation. The world does not have to be in poverty and conflict, it is manipulated to be that way because it serves the bankster's agenda.
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freediver
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #125 - Apr 10th, 2022 at 8:36pm
 
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #126 - Apr 11th, 2022 at 12:43pm
 
wombatwoody wrote on Apr 10th, 2022 at 3:37pm:
It's called 'privatisation', the selling off of state assets to stave off bankruptcy caused by the bank-created debt. Third World countries are handing over control of their land and resources to the international bankers because they cannot pay back the vast loans made, on purpose, by the banks to ensnare them in this very situation. The world does not have to be in poverty and conflict, it is manipulated to be that way because it serves the bankster's agenda.


Indeed. Bobby's video , entitled 'Money as Debt'  highlighted that very fact.

https://youtu.be/2nBPN-MKefA

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Bobby.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #127 - Apr 11th, 2022 at 12:59pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 12:43pm:
Indeed. Bobby's video , entitled 'Money as Debt'  highlighted that very fact.






Everyone needs to watch that video even though it is
46 minutes long.
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Bobby.
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #128 - Apr 11th, 2022 at 1:53pm
 


...
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #129 - Apr 11th, 2022 at 2:20pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 12:59pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 11th, 2022 at 12:43pm:
Indeed. Bobby's video , entitled 'Money as Debt'  highlighted that very fact.






Everyone needs to watch that video even though it is
46 minutes long.


Indeed, although  I notice your reply in the 'privatization' thread - which freediver highjacked from this MMT thread because he doesn't want to face up to the disastrous effects, global as well as national,   of our current debt-money system -  is no doubt your belief the problem lays in the fact money is created 'ex nihilo', rather than the fact money is created as debt.

Hence your misplaced, uncomprehending desire for balanced government budgets, rather than the correct solution which is enabling currency issuing governement to issue debt free money, limited only by the resource constraint (to avoid inflation).

Interesting discussion; I can see why you and I took very different readings out of your video on "money as debt".

You still think money has 'value', regardless of whether it is government-issued debt-free money, or private bankster-issued debt money.

I'm trying to teach you only resources have value. while noting money is always and can only ever be created out of nothing, unless you use shells - or gold  (which is impossible because there is insufficient gold for all nations to participate in trade).

Maybe a consideration of the idea that a perfectly  planned economy could be made to function well, without money at all, might change your view?

(eg in theory:  an economy in which government had perfect knowledge of all the nation's  citizens' capabilities, and their actual contributions to economic development, with these different contributions rewarded by defined goods and services allocations....no money required for the economy to function). 

Edit: I now see  your post #128 which you previously posted in freediver's high-jacked "privatization' thread.

Thanks...and notice the implication of  'fake' money, 'fake' because it is created out of nothing, an idea refuted above (and in MMT).   
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« Last Edit: Apr 11th, 2022 at 5:02pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #130 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 10:04am
 
SadKangaroo wrote-Yesterday at 11:51am

[re privatization, in reply to freediver who asked on Apr 10th, 2022 at 8:28pm:

"How do you know (private owners are only interested in .....ripping out as much money in as short a time as possible")]

SadKangaroo wrote:
Quote:
Privatization transfers the model of the entity away from service to profit.

When you do this on an infrastructure level, especially when there are protections for the company when things go wrong and governments willing to bail them out because they simply can't fail, it's even worse.

But we're getting way ahead of ourselves.

The notion that the Government shouldn't run/own anything is incredibly short-sighted and is ideologically based.  Even likening it to communism only strengthens that argument.

I know there are far more important examples of infrastructure, but take Broadband as an example.

The private ISPs put money into the most profitable areas and that was it.  Regional let alone Rural Australia was left out.  Even Telstra's billions they wanted to spend pre-NBN, it was only in profitable areas and they wanted exemptions to their minimum service obligations under legislation in return.

The private sector was never going to operate services at a loss, even if they can recoup those costs from the inner city customers, it's just not good business.  If a Government has to legislate the servicing of those unprofitable areas, what's the point of privatising?

Power, Water, Health etc, it's all the same.

There is no doubt there can be bloat when the government-run these entities, but we can learn from overseas how to manage these sorts of issues, like say Singapore.

But instead, we get told from one side of politics that the private sector can do it better but time and time again, in terms of service, that's proven to be wrong.

We know what they mean by "do it better" is actually making money.  Those services, and the people that use them (again, Power, Water, Health etc) become the commodity under these models.

Not only does the business model change from Service to Profit, but that profit comes by commoditising us and when things go wrong, because they're vital services and infrastructure, we have to pay a second time when our taxes are used to fix the problem/bail them out.

Gold Coast water was an example.  The local council had to buy back the company because costs were skyrocketing and service levels, repairs, started falling.  Water!

It should have never been privatized in the first place, but now we're left with a massive tax bill due to broken contacts that will be paid off for many many years to come.

I'm not flat out anti-privatization, there are some use cases for it, but the notion that the private sector do it better and more efficiently and Government shouldn't run/own these entities, as a blanket statement I do not support.


Excellent critique of privatization.

The sad fact of course is that ever since governments were forced to abandon post war Keynesian deficit spending in the 1950's, 60's and 70's, governments have sought ways to balance their budgets, including selling-off public utilities to raise money without increasing taxes.

But that process adopted since the 80's, intended to overcome the so called 'stagflation of the mid 70's (see below)   - aka neoliberalism (ie, the 'supply-side economics' favored by Thatcher and Reagan, designed to fight inflation first, rather than maintain Keynesian full employment)  has left us with governments  increasingly unable to meet the needs of the community, so that today after a series of disasters such as the GFC, the covid pandemic and now a war, governments all around the world are heavily indebted and increasingly unable to address soaring inequality.

Now for the first time in decades we again have inflation above 3% (above most central banks' "comfort level").

But the fact is this current post-pandemic bout of inflation is caused by supply side problems, just as was the case with the oil price shocks in the 70's leading to 'stagflation' - high inflation and high unemployment (the result of the Arab oil embargo related to the Palestine/Israel conflict).

How to solve  the current global national (public and private) indebtedness disaster, with soaring inequality and increasing poverty?

(To be addressed in an upcoming post).
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #131 - Apr 12th, 2022 at 2:08pm
 
See post #127,  for the full video of the history of money as debt.

To summarize:

The ancient religions frowned on charging interest on money loans ("usury").

In the middle ages, lenders found they could charge interest as a 'risk' premium, thus creating money as debt.

Money lent was backed by gold (usually); but the paper money itself was of course created 'ex nihilo'.

To this day, the privilege of creating money ('ex nihilo') is reserved for private financiers entitled to charge interest on loans.

An anachronism, in the current post gold-standard era in which currency-issuing governments (with their own central bank and treasury) could be authorized to  issue  their own fiat currencies, without taxing, or borrowing from  private sector financiers/banksters.

The limit to government money-creation being the available resources on which government can spend the government-created 'debt-free' money, to avoid inflation.

(Needless to say, inflation is the key topic which  mainstream economists employ to attack MMT, but they are misguided in their attacks. There are many ways to deal with inflation).

Here we have a solution to the current public  'austerity' situation , forced onto "broke" governments who are unable to raise sufficient taxes because of political (not economic) considerations, or to borrow money which must be repaid with interest, despite the fact  currency-issuing governments don't need to borrow at all, nor maintain balanced budgets , as users of the currency (you and I, and private firms etc) must do.

Read Stephanie Kelton's: The Deficit Myth.

or read for free:

http://moslereconomics.com/mandatory-readings/innocent-frauds/

MMT is starting to enter the university faculties, so it behoves us to be aware of the future impact that this new economics will have on the political process.





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thegreatdivide
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #132 - Apr 14th, 2022 at 8:27pm
 
[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1645944963/131#131 date=1649736519]


(to expand on the inflation concern noted in #post 131):

The limit to government money-creation being the available resources on which government can spend the government-created 'debt-free' money, to avoid inflation, noting that the real causes of any inflationary episode are based on a resource constraint, whether supply or demand based, or both).

Needless to say, inflation is the key topic which  mainstream economists employ to attack MMT, but they are misguided in their attacks. There are many ways to deal with inflation, once its true source has been identified, something which mainstream economists and central bankers never do, since their 'toolkit' is limited to raising interest rates which runs the risk of causing a recession).








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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #133 - Apr 29th, 2022 at 9:47am
 
The idea that government deficits are bad is wrong.

https://www.keenforthesenate.com/a-resilient-economy/

"This may seem an outrageous claim to make—surely economists (if not Pauline Hansen) know how money works? However, no less an authority than The Bank of England has said that economic textbooks are wrong about how banks work:

The reality of how money is created today differs from the description found in some economics textbooks:

Rather than banks receiving deposits when households save and then lending them out, bank lending creates deposits.

Mainstream economic textbooks are as wrong about how governments operate as they are about how banks operate.

When a bank makes a loan for, say, $1 million, it puts $1 million in the borrower’s deposit account, and it records that the borrower now owes the bank $1 million. The deposit account is a Liability of the bank; the loan is the bank’s Asset. Similarly, if the government makes a payment–say paying $1 million for goods purchased from a firm–then the government puts $1 million in the deposit account and $1 million in the Reserves of the banking system.

Where does the bank get the money that it lends, and where does the government get the money that it spends? Neither the bank nor the government “get” the money: instead both banks and the government create money.

Money is primarily bank deposit accounts these days (plus a small amount of cash). Deposit accounts are a Liability of the banking sector. To create money, you have to increase the Liabilities of the banking sector. This is only possible if the Assets of the banking sector rise by the same amount, at the same time.

A bank loan of $1 million does this by increasing the Loans of the banking sector at the same time as it credits the depositor’s bank account with $1 million.
Government spending of $1 million does this by increasing the Reserves of the banking sector at the same time as it credits the depositor’s bank account with $1 million.

The same thing happens in reverse when a loan is repaid, or the government taxes the private sector: money is destroyed".



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Frank
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Re: Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Reply #134 - Apr 29th, 2022 at 12:01pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2022 at 9:47am:
The idea that government deficits are bad is wrong.

https://www.keenforthesenate.com/a-resilient-economy/

"This may seem an outrageous claim to make—surely economists (if not Pauline Hansen) know how money works? However, no less an authority than The Bank of England has said that economic textbooks are wrong about how banks work:

The reality of how money is created today differs from the description found in some economics textbooks:

Rather than banks receiving deposits when households save and then lending them out, bank lending creates deposits.

Mainstream economic textbooks are as wrong about how governments operate as they are about how banks operate.

When a bank makes a loan for, say, $1 million, it puts $1 million in the borrower’s deposit account, and it records that the borrower now owes the bank $1 million. The deposit account is a Liability of the bank; the loan is the bank’s Asset. Similarly, if the government makes a payment–say paying $1 million for goods purchased from a firm–then the government puts $1 million in the deposit account and $1 million in the Reserves of the banking system.

Where does the bank get the money that it lends, and where does the government get the money that it spends? Neither the bank nor the government “get” the money: instead both banks and the government create money.

Money is primarily bank deposit accounts these days (plus a small amount of cash). Deposit accounts are a Liability of the banking sector. To create money, you have to increase the Liabilities of the banking sector. This is only possible if the Assets of the banking sector rise by the same amount, at the same time.

A bank loan of $1 million does this by increasing the Loans of the banking sector at the same time as it credits the depositor’s bank account with $1 million.
Government spending of $1 million does this by increasing the Reserves of the banking sector at the same time as it credits the depositor’s bank account with $1 million.

The same thing happens in reverse when a loan is repaid, or the government taxes the private sector: money is destroyed".






Nonsense. Not even you believe that money is meaningless.

The point of $1 million bank deposit is that you can withdraw it in cash or you can transfer it to someone else's account in exchange for, say, a house that is now yours.  You get REAL stuff when you tap your card at the shops, not just shifting deposits hither and yon.
Money stands in for all that REAL stuff, not for nothing and thin air.i
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