Australian Politics Forum - 17 feet of snow in California

thegreatdivide

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Re: 17 feet of snow in California
Reply #120 - Apr 5^th, 2022 at 3:42pm

Bobby. wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 3:30pm:

What gets me –

why aren't cars not made out of aluminium?

I know it’s more expensive to fabricate with aluminium
but surely it wouldn’t add that much to the price using mass production?
Advantages:
lower weight means more acceleration or
lower weight means a smaller engine with greater fuel economy –
might even double the range of the car with the same tank of fuel.

Low end cars – shopping basket cars -
that’s where light aluminium is needed.
I know there are problems in doing so. e.g.
Australian design rules require a certain strength for areas such as doors
to be strong enough for a side impacts and
that usually requires steel struts.

But aluminium cars have never been available as ordinary cars.
It means Govts. were never serious about lowering emissions.
If so they could have halved the emission of cars in the last 40 years
by having smaller engines but still good performance.
It proves the multi- national companies run the world not our elected Govts.

https://www.metalbulletin.com/Article/3330473/STEEL-VS-AL-Steel-still-trumps-alu...

"In comparison, aluminium costs as much as 60% more when used in automotive production, World AutoSteel told Steel First.
“If a product is not affordable, then its sustainability as a solution is questionable,” the association added".

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« Last Edit: Apr 5^th, 2022 at 4:20pm by Bobby. »

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lee

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Re: 17 feet of snow in California
Reply #121 - Apr 5^th, 2022 at 4:08pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 3:28pm:

Those outlined by the IPCC.

Under which "plausible scenario"? There are numerous scenarios there. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 3:28pm:

Both? The question is - which one.....

As I said the IPCC says it is not plausible but they factored the implausible anyway. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 3:28pm:

Imagine a civilization destroying the planet's ecology because they didn't know how to 'pay for' the timely transition to a renewables economy...

Imagine a civilisation mining trillions of tons of ore for millions of tones of commodities needed to do "renewable".

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lee

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Re: 17 feet of snow in California
Reply #122 - Apr 5^th, 2022 at 4:10pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 3:37pm:

Which is why the mainstream are still bleating about climate change, while expecting someone other than themselves to pay for the green transition.

Energy density. Now as even salt land can sequester CO2 and you want to cover the land with these what does it do for Australia's carbon sink status? Wink

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Bobby.

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Re: 17 feet of snow in California
Reply #123 - Apr 5^th, 2022 at 4:20pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 3:42pm:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 3:30pm:

What gets me –

why aren't cars not made out of aluminium?

I know it’s more expensive to fabricate with aluminium
but surely it wouldn’t add that much to the price using mass production?
Advantages:
lower weight means more acceleration or
lower weight means a smaller engine with greater fuel economy –
might even double the range of the car with the same tank of fuel.

Low end cars – shopping basket cars -
that’s where light aluminium is needed.
I know there are problems in doing so. e.g.
Australian design rules require a certain strength for areas such as doors
to be strong enough for a side impacts and
that usually requires steel struts.

But aluminium cars have never been available as ordinary cars.
It means Govts. were never serious about lowering emissions.
If so they could have halved the emission of cars in the last 40 years
by having smaller engines but still good performance.
It proves the multi- national companies run the world not our elected Govts.

https://www.metalbulletin.com/Article/3330473/STEEL-VS-AL-Steel-still-trumps-alu...

"In comparison, aluminium costs as much as 60% more when used in automotive production, World AutoSteel told Steel First.
“If a product is not affordable, then its sustainability as a solution is questionable,” the association added".

I don't believe that.
They just haven't invested in ways to make aluminium cars cheaper.
Remember they were making aeroplanes out of
aluminium in the 1930s before WW2.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: 17 feet of snow in California
Reply #124 - Apr 5^th, 2022 at 5:45pm

lee wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 4:08pm:

Under which "plausible scenario"? There are numerous scenarios there.

As I said the IPCC says it is not plausible but they factored the implausible anyway. Wink

???

https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/resources/breaking-down-latest-ipcc-report/?gc...

"What is the latest IPCC report (6AR WGII)?

Overall the Sixth Assessment Report (6AR) is the most comprehensive review of the state of knowledge on climate change ever completed, and contains over seven years’ worth of new peer-reviewed science. It is an update to the IPCC’s last such report published in 2014.

What are the main takeaways from this report?
Right now, inadequate global action means the Earth is heading towards catastrophic warming of over 2°C. If all countries copied Australia’s dangerously weak response, we would be headed for warming in excess of 3°C – far beyond anything it is possible to adapt to. We cannot afford to delay. Governments must slash emissions this decade and rapidly transition away from burning fossil fuels.

The latest contribution to the Sixth Assessment Report is from the IPCC’s Working Group II’s (WGII), which deals specifically with the damage that climate change is already causing, and is expected to cause into the future, what this means for communities and ecosystems, and what options we have to adapt to these changes.

If you’re thinking, hey, didn’t the IPCC release a report recently?, then, you’re right. The different working groups each have different focuses and release their findings at different times. The report that was released in October last year from Working Group I focused on the physical science basis of climate change and included projections for future warming and impacts on the climate system. The next release from the Sixth Assessment is set to come out in April and will focus on methods for reducing emissions or removing them from the atmosphere.

Together these three reports make up the IPCC’s Sixth Assessment report, which provides the best available science to all countries.

And today the WHO released a report showing 90% of the world's population is now suffering reduced health outcomes due to an increasingly polluted atmosphere - apart from the AGW greenhouse gas problem.

(People living in outback Oz, with low population density, are probably lucky in this regard).

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thegreatdivide

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Re: 17 feet of snow in California
Reply #125 - Apr 5^th, 2022 at 5:55pm

Bobby. wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 4:20pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 3:42pm:

[quote author=bobbythebat1 link=1640772013/118#118 date=1649136619]What gets me –

why aren't cars not made out of aluminium?

I know it’s more expensive to fabricate with aluminium
but surely it wouldn’t add that much to the price using mass production?
Advantages:
lower weight means more acceleration or
lower weight means a smaller engine with greater fuel economy –
might even double the range of the car with the same tank of fuel.

Low end cars – shopping basket cars -
that’s where light aluminium is needed.
I know there are problems in doing so. e.g.
Australian design rules require a certain strength for areas such as doors
to be strong enough for a side impacts and
that usually requires steel struts.

But aluminium cars have never been available as ordinary cars.
It means Govts. were never serious about lowering emissions.
If so they could have halved the emission of cars in the last 40 years
by having smaller engines but still good performance.
It proves the multi- national companies run the world not our elected Govts.

https://www.metalbulletin.com/Article/3330473/STEEL-VS-AL-Steel-still-trumps-alu...

"In comparison, aluminium costs as much as 60% more when used in automotive production, World AutoSteel told Steel First.
“If a product is not affordable, then its sustainability as a solution is questionable,” the association added".

I don't believe that.

What, that steel cars are 60% cheaper than aluminium ones?

Quote:

They just haven't invested in ways to make aluminium cars cheaper.

Because the raw material (alumina) is dearer than iron ore.

"Is aluminium more expensive than iron?
Even though aluminium is more abundant than iron in the Earth's crust , aluminium is more expensive than iron. This is mainly because of the large amounts of electrical energy used in the extraction process.

Quote:

Remember they were making aeroplanes out of
aluminium in the 1930s before WW2.

Because it's lighter than steel.

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Bobby.

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Re: 17 feet of snow in California
Reply #126 - Apr 5^th, 2022 at 6:22pm

Quote:

Because the raw material (alumina) is dearer than iron ore.

"Is aluminium more expensive than iron?
Even though aluminium is more abundant than iron in the Earth's crust , aluminium is more expensive than iron. This is mainly because of the large amounts of electrical energy used in the extraction process.

steel per tonne:
$1,480 per metric tonne
http://steelbenchmarker.com/history.pdf

aluminium per tonne:
$3,468 per metric tonne
https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/aluminum-price

So Aluminium does cost about twice as much
but you use less of it - that's the whole point -
so it wouldn't add that much to the cost of a car in terms of raw materials.

The cost of fabricating with aluminium?
I'm not sure - it's harder to weld
but it's been used for over 80 years in aeroplanes so
the technology is old and well known.
Only high end cars are made with it.

Quote:

Because it's lighter than steel.

Once again - that's the whole point.
lighter is better.

OK - so the bottom line -
if it adds say $5,000 to a $30,000 car to
have it made of aluminium then the owner would quickly
get that money back in petrol savings.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: 17 feet of snow in California
Reply #127 - Apr 5^th, 2022 at 6:39pm

Bobby. wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 6:22pm:

Quote:

Because the raw material (alumina) is dearer than iron ore.

"Is aluminium more expensive than iron?
Even though aluminium is more abundant than iron in the Earth's crust , aluminium is more expensive than iron. This is mainly because of the large amounts of electrical energy used in the extraction process.

steel per tonne:
$1,480 per metric tonne
http://steelbenchmarker.com/history.pdf

aluminium per tonne:
$3,468 per metric tonne
https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/aluminum-price

So Aluminium does cost about twice as much
but you use less of it - that's the whole point -
so it wouldn't add that much to the cost of a car in terms of raw materials.

The cost of fabricating with aluminium?
I'm not sure - it's harder to weld
but it's been used for over 80 years in aeroplanes so
the technology is old and well known.
Only high end cars are made with it.

Quote:

Because it's lighter than steel.

Once again - that's the whole point.
lighter is better.

OK - so the bottom line -
if it adds say $5,000 to a $30,000 car to
have it made of aluminium then the owner would quickly
get that money back in petrol savings.

Why would less metal be used in a car made of aluminium compared with steel?

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Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 121982 Melbourne Gender:	Re: 17 feet of snow in California Reply #128 - Apr 5^th, 2022 at 6:53pm thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 6:39pm: Why would less metal be used in a car made of aluminium compared with steel? Because aluminium is lighter you use less weight of it.
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lee

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Re: 17 feet of snow in California
Reply #129 - Apr 5^th, 2022 at 6:57pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 5:45pm:

lee wrote Today at 2:08pm:
Under which "plausible scenario"? There are numerous scenarios there.

As I said the IPCC says it is not plausible but they factored the implausible anyway. Wink

???

"The high-end scenarios RCP8.5 or SSP5-8.5 have recently been argued to be implausible to unfold (e.g., (Hausfather and Peters, 2020); see Chapter 3 of the AR6 WGIII). However, where relevant we show results for SSP5-8.5, for example to enable backwards compatibility with AR5, for comparison between emission-driven and concentration-driven simulations, and because there is greater data availability of daily output for SSP5-8.5"

https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/downloads/report/IPCC_AR6_WGI_Chapter_04.pdf

"Emissions – the ‘business as usual’ story is misleading
Stop using the worst-case scenario for climate warming as the most likely outcome — more-realistic baselines make for better policy."

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00177-3

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 5:45pm:

And today the WHO released a report showing 90% of the world's population is now suffering reduced health outcomes due to an increasingly polluted atmosphere - apart from the AGW greenhouse gas problem.

Really? What science did they use?

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15650 Gender:	Re: 17 feet of snow in California Reply #130 - Apr 6^th, 2022 at 1:16pm Bobby. wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 6:53pm: thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 6:39pm: Why would less metal be used in a car made of aluminium compared with steel? Because aluminium is lighter you use less weight of it. But not less volume or quantity? iirc, density = mass over volume.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: 17 feet of snow in California
Reply #131 - Apr 6^th, 2022 at 1:33pm

lee wrote on Apr 5^th, 2022 at 6:57pm:

"The high-end scenarios RCP8.5 or SSP5-8.5 have recently been argued to be implausible to unfold (e.g., (Hausfather and Peters, 2020); see Chapter 3 of the AR6 WGIII). However, where relevant we show results for SSP5-8.5, for example to enable backwards compatibility with AR5, for comparison between emission-driven and concentration-driven simulations, and because there is greater data availability of daily output for SSP5-8.5"

https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/downloads/report/IPCC_AR6_WGI_Chapter_04.pdf

"Emissions – the ‘business as usual’ story is misleading
Stop using the worst-case scenario for climate warming as the most likely outcome — more-realistic baselines make for better policy."

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00177-3

OK...."have been argued".... to form a different conclusion to:

"What are the main takeaways from this report?

Right now, inadequate global action means the Earth is heading towards catastrophic warming of over 2°C".

Good luck fighting it out with the IPCC.

Quote:

Really? What science did they use?

"For human health, the toxic PM2.5 particles of black carbon and sulfate "pose the greatest problems, because they can get deep into your lungs, and some may even get into your bloodstream," the Environmental Protection Agency said.

No doubt you have your own 'science' to dispute that....

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lee

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Re: 17 feet of snow in California
Reply #132 - Apr 6^th, 2022 at 4:35pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 6^th, 2022 at 1:33pm:

Right now, inadequate global action means the Earth is heading towards catastrophic warming of over 2°C".

In what way catastrophic? Be specific.

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 6^th, 2022 at 1:33pm:

Good luck fighting it out with the IPCC.

WG1 is labeled "The Physical Science Basis". That would make WG11 not the physical science basis. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 6^th, 2022 at 1:33pm:

"For human health, the toxic PM2.5 particles of black carbon and sulfate "pose the greatest problems, because they can get deep into your lungs, and some may even get into your bloodstream," the Environmental Protection Agency said.

And how did they measure that? How many autopsies did they perform? Grin

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thegreatdivide

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Re: 17 feet of snow in California
Reply #133 - Apr 7^th, 2022 at 2:26pm

lee wrote on Apr 6^th, 2022 at 4:35pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 6^th, 2022 at 1:33pm:

Right now, inadequate global action means the Earth is heading towards catastrophic warming of over 2°C".

In what way catastrophic? Be specific.

I'm just the messenger, don't shoot me. Apparently there are 3 reports, to conclude WGII.

Btw, still raining in the east coast.....

Interesting to see if a similar three month period has ever been previously recorded by the BOM.

And i the implications for the government budget are horrendous, not to mention insurance companies.

"Central banks might have to buy the fossil industry"....or at least fund government debt..)

Quote:

WG1 is labeled "The Physical Science Basis". That would make WG11 not the physical science basis. Wink

Like I said , I don't think you would last 3 minutes debating the IPCC.

Quote:

And how did they measure that? How many autopsies did they perform? Grin

And also, I don't think you would last three minutes, with the authors of that article.

Tobacco companies tried the same trick for decades, claiming "our products are healthy"....

Same for atmospheric pollution; no probs, according to you.

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lee

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Re: 17 feet of snow in California
Reply #134 - Apr 7^th, 2022 at 4:32pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 7^th, 2022 at 2:26pm:

I'm just the messenger, don't shoot me. Apparently there are 3 reports, to conclude WGII.

And yet you can't cite ONE?That's called "Group Think". Somebody thinks it so its good enough for you. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 7^th, 2022 at 2:26pm:

Btw, still raining in the east coast.....

Ah the climate is changing? For the better or worse for the majority that don't live on flood plains? According to the WMO (a UN Organisation) climate is the average of 30 years weather. Which 30 year period is your reference period?

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 7^th, 2022 at 2:26pm:

Interesting to see if a similar three month period has ever been previously recorded by the BOM.

Oh 3 months is now climate change? Grin

EDIT: JFY - http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/change/index.shtml#tabs=Tracker&tracker=timeseries...

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 7^th, 2022 at 2:26pm:

Like I said , I don't think you would last 3 minutes debating the IPCC.

WG1 says RCP8.5 is implausible. WG11 is predominantly about RCP8.5. (57% of mentions). Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 7^th, 2022 at 2:26pm:

And also, I don't think you would last three minutes, with the authors of that article.

And yet you cite it with confidence and don't know that is done with statistical analyses. That says a lot about you.

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 7^th, 2022 at 2:26pm:

Tobacco companies tried the same trick for decades, claiming "our products are healthy"....

Ah so you compare physical studies to statistical studies and expect the same answers? You really are that dumb?

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 7^th, 2022 at 2:26pm:

Same for atmospheric pollution; no probs, according to you.

So which country's cities did it cite? And what were those populations? and then tell us about the rest of the world.

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« Last Edit: Apr 7^th, 2022 at 4:41pm by lee »

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