Australian Politics Forum - Palestinians suffer under the taliban,

Frank

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Re: Palestinians suffer under the taliban,
Reply #15 - Nov 24^th, 2021 at 3:38pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 24^th, 2021 at 3:32pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 24^th, 2021 at 1:45pm:

The magic pudding monetary policy - just make up more money!

Well you are happy to discount the intelligence of Gittins and Kohler; but I will begin your education, so you don't have to be frightened of government rehabilitation of the survivors of cultural genocide, funded by higher taxes.

1. A sovereign fiat-currency-issuing government's ability to spend is constrained by the nation's available resources and productive capacity, it is NOT constrained by the ability to access its own currency.

Think about that for a while, and let go of your obsolete gold standard which Nixon abandoned in 1971 because there is not enough gold in the world to enable trade between all nations. Or, according to google:

President Richard Nixon closed the gold window in 1971 in order to address the country's inflation problem and to discourage foreign governments from redeeming more and more dollars for gold.

So, who'd have thought, a nation's 'wealth' is determined by labour + know-how + resources, NOT by money defined in terms of the value of gold. Obvious, when you think about it.

I can see you don't understand what you are talking about (or what Gittins was).

Money is a value signifier. Printing more money does not make more value.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Palestinians suffer under the taliban, Reply #16 - Nov 24^th, 2021 at 3:39pm Frank wrote on Nov 24^th, 2021 at 3:38pm: Printing more money does not make more value. But it sure feels good.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Palestinians suffer under the taliban,
Reply #17 - Nov 24^th, 2021 at 9:11pm

Frank wrote on Nov 24^th, 2021 at 3:38pm:

[quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1637531107/14#14 date=1637731929]
I can see you don't understand what you are talking about (or what Gittins was).

Money is a value signifier. Printing more money does not make more value.

So when the population doubles, and the economy's output doubles (more or less), where does the increase in the money supply come from?

Or better yet, if the productivity of the economy increases, and/or a new resource is found, increasing livings standards, where does the extra money increased wealth - in the economy come from?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Palestinians suffer under the taliban,
Reply #18 - Nov 24^th, 2021 at 9:32pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 24^th, 2021 at 3:39pm:

But it sure feels good

However I don't recommend you try it yourself, if you want to stay out of prison...

Whereas the sovereign currency-issuer is the sole legal issuer of the nation's currency.

But the problem with the current monetary orthodoxy is the sovereign currency issuer is forbidden to spend its own currency, without taxing or borrowing from the private sector.

Which means the public sector (government) can never properly fund public spending (age care, public infrastructure, tertiary education etc) because the private sector (you and me) don't like paying higher taxes.

Which is the cause of the never ending tug of war between those who have money (the Right) and those who don't (the Left), broadly speaking. The Right want lower government spending (because they have enough money to look after themselves) and the Left want higher taxes, to pay for the public goods noted above.

That's why the Left is always on a hiding to nowhere, in most elections. So Labor has abandoned its capital gains tax, negative gearing and dividend imputation policies, in an attempt to win the next election - but then how can Labor pay for anything......

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Palestinians suffer under the taliban,
Reply #19 - Nov 24^th, 2021 at 9:36pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 24^th, 2021 at 9:32pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 24^th, 2021 at 3:39pm:

But it sure feels good

However I don't recommend you try it yourself, if you want to stay out of prison...

Whereas the sovereign currency-issuer is the sole legal issuer of the nation's currency.

But the problem with the current monetary orthodoxy is the sovereign currency issuer is forbidden to spend its own currency, without taxing or borrowing from the private sector.

Which means the public sector (government) can never properly fund public spending (age care, public infrastructure, tertiary education etc) because the private sector (you and me) don't like paying higher taxes.

Which is the cause of the never ending tug of war between those who have money (the Right) and those who don't (the Left), broadly speaking. The Right want lower government spending (because they have enough money to look after themselves) and the Left want higher taxes, to pay for the public goods noted above.

That's why the Left is always on a hiding to nowhere, in most elections. So Labor has abandoned its capital gains tax, negative gearing and dividend imputation policies, in an attempt to win the next election - but then how can Labor pay for anything......

Well, thank ye, sir!

Now, see that jar? See them beans? Ye best be counting.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Palestinians suffer under the taliban,
Reply #20 - Nov 24^th, 2021 at 9:55pm

Valkie wrote on Nov 24^th, 2021 at 2:01pm:

All the money the grubberment has, comes from taxes.
Taxes come from people who work and earn money.
QED workers have to pay for bludgers..............again.

Correct, so the correct solution is for government to make sure everyone has a job, so everyone can pay taxes; and note: the sovereign currency-issuer doesn't need your taxes in order to spend. This myth is simply a hangover from classical economics which did not consider the foundational role that government plays in the nation's productivity eg universal education and vital public infrastructure.

Quote:

So again, taxes will have to rise to pay more to people who do not work and do not contribute.
Seems a little unfair to me.

No, what's unfair is the NAIRU (google it) of economic orthodoxy which signifies the level of unemployment necessary to control inflation.

Quote:

Here is a question.
If one race is given more benifits, has less responsibility to seek work and who is moved to the front of the housing list for free or low rent housing.

And another race is denied the same.

Is this not racism?

Yes it is. But the "responsibility to seek work", is not the same as actually scoring a job......sometimes people face ...discrimination...apart from the NAIRU issue mentioned above.

Quote:

Be honest, not duplicitous, is it not considered racist to favor one race over another.
Imagine if whites were given "special" benifits for being white?

Addressed above (leaving aside the erroneous use of the word "favor") . Now let's see how much "honesty" you can muster, in your repudiation of the above.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Palestinians suffer under the taliban,
Reply #21 - Nov 24^th, 2021 at 10:11pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 24^th, 2021 at 9:36pm:

Well, thank ye, sir!

Now, see that jar? See them beans? Ye best be counting.

[Note , I have scored some wins on the internet explaining MMT; some see it relatively easily, so I'll keep plugging away on behalf the public sector's collective well-being (which I'm assuming you don't care much about, given that under present monetary arrangements you'll have to pay more tax)].

Unlike the beans in a jar, which the owner will soon run out of if he eats them, the sovereign currency issuer - the only legal issuer - can never run out of money (in that currency).

The constraint which the currency-issuer faces is the resources (goods and services) available for purchase, not a number of dollars, or the number of beans in the jar. Just as the score keeper never runs out of 'points' (beans, dollars) in a football game.

Warren Mosler's '7 deadly innocent frauds of economic policy' is available free on the internet, if you want to learn.

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« Last Edit: Nov 24^th, 2021 at 10:18pm by thegreatdivide »

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Setanta

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Re: Palestinians suffer under the taliban,
Reply #22 - Nov 25^th, 2021 at 6:16pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 24^th, 2021 at 10:11pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 24^th, 2021 at 9:36pm:

Well, thank ye, sir!

Now, see that jar? See them beans? Ye best be counting.

[Note , I have scored some wins on the internet explaining MMT; some see it relatively easily, so I'll keep plugging away on behalf the public sector's collective well-being (which I'm assuming you don't care much about, given that under present monetary arrangements you'll have to pay more tax)].

Unlike the beans in a jar, which the owner will soon run out of if he eats them, the sovereign currency issuer - the only legal issuer - can never run out of money (in that currency).

The constraint which the currency-issuer faces is the resources (goods and services) available for purchase, not a number of dollars, or the number of beans in the jar. Just as the score keeper never runs out of 'points' (beans, dollars) in a football game.

Warren Mosler's '7 deadly innocent frauds of economic policy' is available free on the internet, if you want to learn.

Perhaps explain it for them with a family issuing it's own currency for house tasks and trade amongst themselves for good or services which can be converted to outside the house dollars to buy stuff the house cannot provide? Who issues the house dollars? Dad? How many can he print?

They cannot see that a national economy, lets use Australia, is the same kind of thing on a much larger scale.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Palestinians suffer under the taliban,
Reply #23 - Nov 26^th, 2021 at 1:15pm

Setanta wrote on Nov 25^th, 2021 at 6:16pm:

Perhaps explain it for them with a family issuing it's own currency for house tasks and trade amongst themselves for good or services which can be converted to outside the house dollars to buy stuff the house cannot provide? Who issues the house dollars? Dad? How many can he print?

They cannot see that a national economy, lets use Australia, is the same kind of thing on a much larger scale.

Excellent observations. Yes, another of Mosler's brilliant analogies to explain government fiat currency issuance, iirc.

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Valkie

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Re: Palestinians suffer under the taliban,
Reply #24 - Nov 26^th, 2021 at 3:27pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 24^th, 2021 at 9:55pm:

Valkie wrote on Nov 24^th, 2021 at 2:01pm:

All the money the grubberment has, comes from taxes.
Taxes come from people who work and earn money.
QED workers have to pay for bludgers..............again.

Correct, so the correct solution is for government to make sure everyone has a job, so everyone can pay taxes; and note: the sovereign currency-issuer doesn't need your taxes in order to spend. This myth is simply a hangover from classical economics which did not consider the foundational role that government plays in the nation's productivity eg universal education and vital public infrastructure.

They try, but instead, they allow immigrants to come here and work.
The dole should have a 12 month lifespan, after 12 months it should be halved or cut completly.

Quote:

So again, taxes will have to rise to pay more to people who do not work and do not contribute.
Seems a little unfair to me.

No, what's unfair is the NAIRU (google it) of economic orthodoxy which signifies the level of unemployment necessary to control inflation.

Quote:

Here is a question.
If one race is given more benifits, has less responsibility to seek work and who is moved to the front of the housing list for free or low rent housing.

And another race is denied the same.

Is this not racism?

Yes it is. But the "responsibility to seek work", is not the same as actually scoring a job......sometimes people face ...discrimination...apart from the NAIRU issue mentioned above.

Quote:

Be honest, not duplicitous, is it not considered racist to favor one race over another.
Imagine if whites were given "special" benifits for being white?

Addressed above (leaving aside the erroneous use of the word "favor") . Now let's see how much "honesty" you can muster, in your repudiation of the above.

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I HAVE A DREAM
A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM.
A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU

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Frank

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Re: Palestinians suffer under the taliban,
Reply #25 - Nov 26^th, 2021 at 6:17pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 1:15pm:

Setanta wrote on Nov 25^th, 2021 at 6:16pm:

Perhaps explain it for them with a family issuing it's own currency for house tasks and trade amongst themselves for good or services which can be converted to outside the house dollars to buy stuff the house cannot provide? Who issues the house dollars? Dad? How many can he print?

They cannot see that a national economy, lets use Australia, is the same kind of thing on a much larger scale.

Excellent observations. Yes, another of Mosler's brilliant analogies to explain government fiat currency issuance, iirc.

Terrible analogy. Terrible - no wonder you are clapping. It's Zimbabwean Dollar/Monopoly money/private language analogy - issue money that is worth nothing because it has nothing of value behind it, utter words only you understand.

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freediver

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Re: Palestinians suffer under the taliban,
Reply #26 - Nov 26^th, 2021 at 6:44pm

Frank wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 6:17pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 1:15pm:

Setanta wrote on Nov 25^th, 2021 at 6:16pm:

Perhaps explain it for them with a family issuing it's own currency for house tasks and trade amongst themselves for good or services which can be converted to outside the house dollars to buy stuff the house cannot provide? Who issues the house dollars? Dad? How many can he print?

They cannot see that a national economy, lets use Australia, is the same kind of thing on a much larger scale.

Excellent observations. Yes, another of Mosler's brilliant analogies to explain government fiat currency issuance, iirc.

Terrible analogy. Terrible - no wonder you are clapping. It's Zimbabwean Dollar/Monopoly money/private language analogy - issue money that is worth nothing because it has nothing of value behind it, utter words only you understand.

It has real value. It is pegged to the dollar.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Frank

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Re: Palestinians suffer under the taliban,
Reply #27 - Nov 26^th, 2021 at 9:30pm

freediver wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 6:44pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 6:17pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 1:15pm:

Setanta wrote on Nov 25^th, 2021 at 6:16pm:

Perhaps explain it for them with a family issuing it's own currency for house tasks and trade amongst themselves for good or services which can be converted to outside the house dollars to buy stuff the house cannot provide? Who issues the house dollars? Dad? How many can he print?

They cannot see that a national economy, lets use Australia, is the same kind of thing on a much larger scale.

Excellent observations. Yes, another of Mosler's brilliant analogies to explain government fiat currency issuance, iirc.

Terrible analogy. Terrible - no wonder you are clapping. It's Zimbabwean Dollar/Monopoly money/private language analogy - issue money that is worth nothing because it has nothing of value behind it, utter words only you understand.

It has real value. It is pegged to the dollar.

Thank you, fd.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50584 At my desk.	Re: Palestinians suffer under the taliban, Reply #28 - Nov 27^th, 2021 at 3:26am It's a great analogy. You just don't understand it. Why are you trying to link it to hyperinflation?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Palestinians suffer under the taliban,
Reply #29 - Nov 27^th, 2021 at 12:25pm

Frank wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 6:17pm:

Terrible analogy. Terrible - no wonder you are clapping. It's Zimbabwean Dollar/Monopoly money/private language analogy - issue money that is worth nothing because it has nothing of value behind it, utter words only you understand.

The US, Oz, UK, Japan, China etc "monopoly" monies have value because these economies are productive, not because the government (currency issuer) is banned from issuing and spending its own currency. If the money supply - whether issued in the public or private sector - does not exceed the economy's potential output, then money creation - whether 'debt-free' in the public sector- or 'debt bearing' money in the private sector, will not result in inflation.

Zimbabwe's hyperinflation was caused by loss of food production, when Mugabe expelled white farmers and gave the farms to inexperienced black farmers, and hence food prices increased.

Note: Bitcoin, loved by anti - fiat currency, gold standard freaks, is now off 20% from its sept. peak, highlighting the difference between currencies based on a nation's productive capacity, and non-government digital currencies based on a Ponzi scheme.

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« Last Edit: Nov 28^th, 2021 at 11:02am by thegreatdivide »

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