Australian Politics Forum - The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah

lee

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Re: The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah
Reply #105 - Nov 29^th, 2021 at 5:45pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 29^th, 2021 at 3:20pm:

So only a few remaining points of concern for me, while you continue with your 'anti - anti - (!) CO2 emissions' crusade.

Poor petal. No crusade here. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 29^th, 2021 at 3:20pm:

No, we mobilize resources as required, to "make it better". Money is immaterial for a currency issuer.

So are you an economist or a layperson? Why would you willingly go to an untried system?

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 29^th, 2021 at 3:20pm:

Well, you misunderstood; Bill Mitchell has written the 1st MMT textbook, released last year. Laypeople and students will learn, as this textbook becomes established in tertiary education schools.

Ah yes learning by diktat.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 29^th, 2021 at 3:20pm:

What I want is the BIS (central bank of central banks) to fund the green infrastructure build around the globe, including Africa. All continents have access to most of the materials required.

Those materials need fossil fuels especially in the mining phase. South Africa is starting to use their SMR (small nuclear reactors) - CO2 free. The majority of cost is green tape in most countries. Once up and running they are cheapest over their service life.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 29^th, 2021 at 3:20pm:

"Snowy Hydro 2.0 will store so much energy that — technically at least — it could supply two gigawatts of power for days. "

Yeah. I saw that at Solar quotes. It further says - "With these great benefits, it’s a pity it looks like it will be a massive waste of money.

That’s because by the time it comes online, using batteries plus additional solar, and wind generating capacity will be cheaper.

This article will look at how Snowy Hydro 2.0 stacks up against large scale battery storage — both existing and soon to be built. I’ll tell you now it doesn’t look good. The best we can hope for is the project will be a cream elephant rather than a completely white one. "

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/snowy-2-vs-battery-storage/

Quite a good article. They say they envisage 40GWh not the 250GWh touted.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 29^th, 2021 at 3:20pm:

Impressive, (even though the number of days is not specified), especially since it too will be connected to the Pilbara which boasts an average 10 hours of sunshine per day, annually

Ah paid for by MMT I assume. Grin

But don't work on averages. 3 days of a tropical cyclone means almost 0 for 3 days. You have to account for that somehow. And cyclones means installed wind in the area is also closed down.

You have heard of the bloke standing one leg in boiling water and the other in ice? on average he's comfortable.
Quite a good article. They say they envisage 40GWh not the 250GWh touted.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 29^th, 2021 at 3:20pm:

Irrelevant; eg efficiency of an ICE is c.20%, and we have lived with that for a century.

Inside EV says 40%.

But go through the calcs. Say 300Mw solar nameplate. Capacity factor 30% - output 90Mw. Green hydrogen 40 % efficient in the making - 36Mw output. You have lost 88% of power.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah
Reply #106 - Nov 30^th, 2021 at 11:17am

lee wrote on Nov 29^th, 2021 at 5:45pm:

Poor petal. No crusade here

What, disputing the IPCC isn't a crusade? OK, carry on.

Quote:

So are you an economist or a layperson? Why would you willingly go to an untried system?

Because the status quo is responsible for the death of that Iraqi girl in the English Channel**....and Musk is is now wealthier than the governments of 3/4 of the world's nations....(not that Musk's wealth is necessarily a problem, but the poverty of 3/4 of the world's governments IS a problem; and even the OZ government is now saddled with $1 trillion in debt post covid....) so I despise the status quo, in fact it's criminal.

You of course being a comfortable conservative sleep comfortably every night while refugee children freeze to death on the Polish border.

**"It's the economy, stupid". and you are satisfied with it. I rest my case.

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Ah yes learning by diktat.

No, learning by examination of classical precepts, and discovering obsolescences therein.

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Those materials need fossil fuels especially in the mining phase.

Mining can increasingly operate on electric and hydrogen fuel cell power.

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South Africa is starting to use their SMR (small nuclear reactors) - CO2 free. The majority of cost is green tape in most countries. Once up and running they are cheapest over their service life.

No argument from me. But the Oz public don't accept nuclear. A former ALP state premier in South Australia gave it a shot, but the nuclear option was rejected. And most commentators assert nuclear is too expensive, though I don't necessarily think "expense" is a problem (as you know), whereas nuclear waste disposal is a problem.

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Yeah. I saw that at Solar quotes. It further says - "With these great benefits, it’s a pity it looks like it will be a massive waste of money.

That’s because by the time it comes online, using batteries plus additional solar, and wind generating capacity will be cheaper.

This article will look at how Snowy Hydro 2.0 stacks up against large scale battery storage — both existing and soon to be built. I’ll tell you now it doesn’t look good. The best we can hope for is the project will be a cream elephant rather than a completely white one. "

So the smart thing to do is build Snowy 2.0 and see how it stacks up against batteries in practice. There won't be any "waste of money" in the long run, because we need the equivalent of a dozen or so Snowy 2.0s. to complete the transition to 100% renewables in Oz.

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Ah paid for by MMT I assume.

Well...mainstream economists say it will be paid for by carbon taxes in the market economy, but fossil company execs are unwilling to close down their lucrative industry, and the public don't want carbon taxes.

Nationalization of the industry, and funding the transition to renewables by the currency issuer, is a way out of this impasse.

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But don't work on averages. 3 days of a tropical cyclone means almost 0 for 3 days. You have to account for that somehow. And cyclones means installed wind in the area is also closed down.

Northern Oz is a vast area, not all of which is affected by a particular cyclone at the same time.

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But go through the calcs. Say 300Mw solar nameplate. Capacity factor 30% - output 90Mw. Green hydrogen 40 % efficient in the making - 36Mw output. You have lost 88% of power.

Like I said, doesn't matter. We are talking 20GW of renewables to power Oz in any circumstances. google says 60 million solar panels required after losses. (12 panels per Oz home).

And that's without the Pilbara, or the rest of Northern Oz!

Doable.

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« Last Edit: Nov 30^th, 2021 at 11:33am by thegreatdivide »

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Dnarever Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 62253 Here Gender:	Re: The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah Reply #107 - Nov 30^th, 2021 at 11:32am Quote: Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah Yet it continues more and more Blah, Blah, Blah
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lee

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Re: The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah
Reply #108 - Nov 30^th, 2021 at 12:21pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 11:17am:

What, disputing the IPCC isn't a crusade? OK, carry on.

Poor petal. I showed YOU what the IPCC said about floods and droughts, with which you initially disagreed, saying deniers were lying about what was said. you also confused the the National Determined Contributions as being from the IPCC and said the IPCC said a 2.7C rise would be catastrophic.

I showed you to be wrong on so many things that the IPCC DIDN'T say. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 11:17am:

uote:
So are you an economist or a layperson? Why would you willingly go to an untried system?

Because the status quo is responsible for the death of that Iraqi girl in the English Channel**....and Musk is is now wealthier than the governments of 3/4 of the world's nations....(not that Musk's wealth is necessarily a problem, but the poverty of 3/4 of the world's governments IS a problem; and even the OZ government is now saddled with $1 trillion in debt post covid....) so I despise the status quo, in fact it's criminal.

So by your answer you are not an economist but a layperson. That explains why MMTers see that inflation may be a problem but increasing taxes would fix it, but you say there would be no inflation and no taxes.

"An MMT Response on What Causes Inflation"

"If the government prints and spends money when the economy is at or near full employment, MMT counsels (correctly) that this will lead to inflation, and prescribes deficit-reducing tax increases to reduce aggregate demand and thereby control inflation."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332318485_An_MMT_Response_on_What_Cause...

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 11:17am:

No, learning by examination of classical precepts, and discovering obsolescences therein.

So a non-economist knows how to do this? Discovering obsolescences? You mean hey haven't found them yet? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 11:17am:

Mining can increasingly operate on electric and hydrogen fuel cell power.

Yeah At what cost? The Government won't pay for that, unless it nationalises industry. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 11:17am:

So the smart thing to do is build Snowy 2.0 and see how it stacks up against batteries in practice. There won't be any "waste of money" in the long run, because we need the equivalent of a dozen or so Snowy 2.0s. to complete the transition to 100% renewables in Oz.

100% renewables is a furphy. The energy density is not there.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 11:17am:

Northern Oz is a vast area, not all of which is affected by a particular cyclone at the same time.

Very true. Now all you have to do is pick many spots and put in many arrays. Grin

And the energy density is still not there.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 11:17am:

We are talking 20GW of renewables to power Oz in any circumstances.

According to energy.gov.au we used 265TWh last year. More in winter than summer. But 265TWh converts to 265,000 GWh per year. 726 GWh/day or an average of 30GWh per hour. So in winter we need more than 30GWh per hour.

Is that 20Gw nameplate capacity or capacity factor output?

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 11:17am:

google says 60 million solar panels required after losses. (12 panels per Oz home).

Now all you have to do is factor in those houses not suitable, the fact that neither solar nor wind provides inertia to any sudden load etc, etc.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah
Reply #109 - Nov 30^th, 2021 at 1:31pm

lee wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 12:21pm:

I showed you to be wrong on so many things that the IPCC DIDN'T say.

OK. Yet the IPCC IS wrong on so many things it DOES say, according to your anti anti- CO2 emissions crusade...

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So by your answer you are not an economist but a layperson

Of course, problem?

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That explains why MMTers see that inflation may be a problem but increasing taxes would fix it, but you say there would be no inflation and no taxes.

There are many ways to control inflation, depending on the nature of the inflation; and the current mainstream fools want to jack up interest rates to control price rises caused by pandemic induced supply chain blockages. Blimey, I expect even you can see the idiocy in that course of action , to control a non-existent underlying "inflation". The mainstreamers are of course shorting the bond market, so they are urging central bankers to raise interest rates, and expect to make a killing when rates do rise.

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"An MMT Response on What Causes Inflation"

"If the government prints and spends money when the economy is at or near full employment, MMT counsels (correctly) that this will lead to inflation, and prescribes deficit-reducing tax increases to reduce aggregate demand and thereby control inflation."

Correct, but central bankers bamboozled by orthodoxy are currently demanding central banks to raise interests rates to control non-existent underlying (structural) inflation.

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So a non-economist knows how to do this? Discovering obsolescences? You mean hey haven't found them yet?

Accredited economists have been grappling with the inadequacies and absurdities of classical economics for decades. MMT is the latest thought in that ongoing process of discovery.

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Yeah At what cost? The Government won't pay for that, unless it nationalises industry. Wink

Nationalization is my preferred option, but not absolutely necessary. Government can restrict itself to the natural monopoly portion of the energy sector, such as the national grid.

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100% renewables is a furphy. The energy density is not there.

Discussed before. Let's get on with the job. There are millions of sq. klms of cheap land in Northern Australia. We'll soon find out if 100% is doable or not; the ANU says it is.

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Very true. Now all you have to do is pick many spots and put in many arrays.

That's correct. Plenty of otherwise useless land in Oz.

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And the energy density is still not there.

Doesn't matter, as already pointed out: simply build what is required to produce the energy you need, post losses.

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According to energy.gov.au we used 265TWh last year. More in winter than summer. But 265TWh converts to 265,000 GWh per year. 726 GWh/day or an average of 30GWh per hour. So in winter we need more than 30GWh per hour.

OK 20, 30...all doable.

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Is that 20Gw nameplate capacity or capacity factor output?

It's obviously capacity output, eg, when the sun is shining, your '10kw' rooftop system can produce around 10kw of continuous power, every second, every hour (and power excess to requirements at any point in time can be stored in a 10kw capacity battery.

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Now all you have to do is factor in those houses not suitable, the fact that neither solar nor wind provides inertia to any sudden load etc, etc.

That's where houses which DO have PV with batteries, plus Snowy 2.0, plus large-scale battery storage, all connected by the smart grid, come in.

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« Last Edit: Nov 30^th, 2021 at 1:37pm by thegreatdivide »

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lee

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Re: The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah
Reply #110 - Nov 30^th, 2021 at 3:19pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 1:31pm:

Yet the IPCC IS wrong on so many things it DOES say, according to your anti anti- CO2 emissions crusade...

Lets's see. the IPCC supports all Climate models. Those that are good, those that are bad and those that are indifferent. You would think after 40 years they would settle on those that are "good".

The IPCC is an Intergovernmental Panel. The final say goes to governments not the scientists.

The current SPM has a hockey stick temperature series in its paper - and yet nowhere in the Science Basis report is a hockey stick temperature even mentioned. The IPCC says that it uses only peer-reviewed publications and yet the hockey stick comes from the PAGES 2000 consortium and is not peer-reviewed.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 1:31pm:

Of course, problem

So you don't know what you are talking about.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 1:31pm:

There are many ways to control inflation, depending on the nature of the inflation; and the current mainstream fools want to jack up interest rates to control price rises caused by pandemic induced supply chain blockages. Blimey, I expect even you can see the idiocy in that course of action , to control a non-existent underlying "inflation". The mainstreamers are of course shorting the bond market, so they are urging central bankers to raise interest rates, and expect to make a killing when rates do rise.

Spoken like a true believer. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 1:31pm:

Let's get on with the job. There are millions of sq. klms of cheap land in Northern Australia. We'll soon find out if 100% is doable or not; the ANU says it is.

So even if it is doomed to failure you want it? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 1:31pm:

OK 20, 30...all doable.

Average PER HOUR. That include industries that don't work Saturday and Sunday.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 1:31pm:

It's obviously capacity output, eg, when the sun is shining, your '10kw' rooftop system can produce around 10kw of continuous power, every second, every hour (and power excess to requirements at any point in time can be stored in a 10kw capacity battery.

A 10KW solar array will give around 40 to 50KW per day. Inverter losses etc are about 14%. The output varies throughout the day. generally being good from 10am to perhaps 2pm.

So we now know you don't know much about solar either.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 1:31pm:

hat's where houses which DO have PV with batteries, plus Snowy 2.0, plus large-scale battery storage, all connected by the smart grid, come in.

But it increase the number of panels per house. Wink

And those large scale batteries good for smoothing the output - not for usable storage. 30 minutes for $900,000 for 30,000 houses is not good.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah
Reply #111 - Dec 1^st, 2021 at 12:31pm

lee wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 3:19pm:

Lets's see. the IPCC supports all Climate models. Those that are good, those that are bad and those that are indifferent. You would think after 40 years they would settle on those that are "good".

The IPCC is an Intergovernmental Panel. The final say goes to governments not the scientists.

The current SPM has a hockey stick temperature series in its paper - and yet nowhere in the Science Basis report is a hockey stick temperature even mentioned. The IPCC says that it uses only peer-reviewed publications and yet the hockey stick comes from the PAGES 2000 consortium and is not peer-reviewed.

Good luck with countering the IPCC...

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So you don't know what you are talking about.

Er... students learn from professors, right? The reason why Philip Lowe can get away with his obsolete orthodoxy is because the wealthy to whom he is beholden don't want the public sector to command the resources required to eradicate poverty.
Speaking of credentials, can you outline yours (in environmental science)?

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Spoken like a true believer.

Not a matter of faith, more common sense.
1. Forcing the sovereign currency issuing government to tax or borrow from the private sector is an obvious ruse to keep the poor in relative poverty, via unemployment, low minumum wages and "welfare".
2. The inflation constraint is defined by resources not money; unlike the former, the latter is created 'ex nihilo' whether in private banks or the central bank.

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So even if it is doomed to failure you want it?

I have confidence in the relevant ANU studies, and the nation's engineering capacities.

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Average PER HOUR. That include industries that don't work Saturday and Sunday.

When the sun is shining the PV panel produces its stated output capacity measured in kws, not kwhr (just like a car engine is said to have 'x kws' of power).

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A 10KW solar array will give around 40 to 50KW per day. Inverter losses etc are about 14%. The output varies throughout the day. generally being good from 10am to perhaps 2pm.

So we now know you don't know much about solar either.

Er.. let's stick to the issue...which is Oz can build many times the number of PVs required to power the Oz economy, in conjunction with interconnected long term and short term storage backup. Then there's all those wind turbines off the coast in the roaring forties...

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But it increase the number of panels per house.

Did you forget the Pilbara and much of northern and central Australia's cheap land?

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And those large scale batteries good for smoothing the output - not for usable storage. 30 minutes for $900,000 for 30,000 houses is not good.

That's right (not discounting a useful role for large scale batteries) , whereas long term usable storage is successfully provided by pumped-hydro schemes (for days at a time, as already noted).

Surely its checkmate by now?

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« Last Edit: Dec 1^st, 2021 at 12:40pm by thegreatdivide »

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lee

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Re: The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah
Reply #112 - Dec 1^st, 2021 at 2:24pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 1^st, 2021 at 12:31pm:

Good luck with countering the IPCC...

I gave you some reasons. Can you tell me why you like them so much? Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 1^st, 2021 at 12:31pm:

Er... students learn from professors, right?

True. So you don't think both economics ideas should be taught, just your preferred one? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 1^st, 2021 at 12:31pm:

Speaking of credentials, can you outline yours (in environmental science)?

I don't have any other than an abiding interest in science since my school days. One doesn't need a degree to follow an argument. Grin

But as you say economics is not a science. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 1^st, 2021 at 12:31pm:

Not a matter of faith, more common sense.

Common sense is just not common. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 1^st, 2021 at 12:31pm:

I have confidence in the relevant ANU studies, and the nation's engineering capacities.

So you can tell us how much steel per wind turbine? How much copper? The ANU studies don't mention that. And all the while the whole world will need these raw materials; not just Australia. The rules of supply and demand will still apply I presume. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 1^st, 2021 at 12:31pm:

When the sun is shining the PV panel produces its stated output capacity measured in kws, not kwhr (just like a car engine is said to have 'x kws' of power).

Rubbish. Solar panels output depends on time of day as well as the conditions. The sun is always shining somewhere. Grin

You do know they only produce power at that instant?

A solar power array occupies space both in height and area. That produces the energy density. Energy produced divided by the area and height. So a 300MW solar array on 900Ha at an average height of 1m gives 0.33MW/Ha .

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 1^st, 2021 at 12:31pm:

Er.. let's stick to the issue...which is Oz can build many times the number of PVs required to power the Oz economy, in conjunction with interconnected long term and short term storage backup.

Only in your perfect world.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 1^st, 2021 at 12:31pm:

Did you forget the Pilbara and much of northern and central Australia's cheap land?

Really? where is this cheap land? The desert? Oh that's right we covered that. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 1^st, 2021 at 12:31pm:

That's right (not discounting a useful role for large scale batteries) , whereas long term usable storage is successfully provided by pumped-hydro schemes (for days at a time, as already noted).

40 GW at 2GWh last 20 hours.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 1^st, 2021 at 12:31pm:

Surely its checkmate by now?

It is; you still believe in unicorns and fairy farts.. And the reason they use MWp on solar farms? MegaWatts peak. So when the sun is at its best angle, not PV supplying stated output from morning until dark. Grin

Are you a part of the great reset? Wink

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« Last Edit: Dec 1^st, 2021 at 3:44pm by lee »

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Re: The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah
Reply #113 - Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 10:54am

lee wrote on Dec 1^st, 2021 at 2:24pm:

I gave you some reasons. Can you tell me why you like them so much?

Because their AGW theory plays into my desire for a healthy atmosphere, and free electricity which can eradicate poverty from the face of the earth.

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True. So you don't think both economics ideas should be taught, just your preferred one?

This morning, the ABC's Fran Kelly asked the treasurer (Frydenberg) how he intended to reduce the government's $1 trillion debt accumulated because of the pandemic, in order that the debt "will not be a burden on our grandchildren". God save us from such erroneous thinking as that displayed by Kelly, the result of mainstream economic orthodoxy. We better hope the new Omrican variant is not as deadly as the original variant, other wise - according to the mainstream - the Oz government will eventually be overwhelmed by debt and we will all starve as a result, never mind the grandchildren.

So there's the answer to your question.. Orthodoxy would have us starving, because of the size of the government debt Sheer madness.

Which would you prefer? I rest my case.

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I don't have any other than an abiding interest in science since my school days. One doesn't need a degree to follow an argument.

Correct, thanks for confirming my position in that regard.

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But as you say economics is not a science.

Nasty.....it is an academic discipline, in which argument can be followed.

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Common sense is just not common.

Still, you don't need a degree to follow an argument as you observed; did you follow the simple "common sense" points I outlined?

[I suppose "common sense" means plain/simple rationality, in this context].

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So you can tell us how much steel per wind turbine? How much copper? The ANU studies don't mention that. And all the while the whole world will need these raw materials; not just Australia. The rules of supply and demand will still apply I presume.

"Most solar panels are made from silicon wafers, more commonly known as sand. Silicon is great for our planet because it is available in abundance."

And as for wind turbines, I dare say the Pilbara's iron ore reserves alone could supply many more times the steel required for all the world's wind turbines.

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Rubbish. Solar panels output depends on time of day as well as the conditions. The sun is always shining somewhere.

I said when the sun is shining on the panel; and indeed the sun is always shining somewhere, just as the wind is always blowing somewhere...so.... backed by long term and short term storage, we can have 100% renewables.

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You do know they only produce power at that instant?

No, PV's produce power continuously, when exposed to sunlight, (though varying according to angle and intensity of sun)

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A solar power array occupies space both in height and area. That produces the energy density. Energy produced divided by the area and height. So a 300MW solar array on 900Ha at an average height of 1m gives 0.33MW/Ha .

You still trying to tell us the US, for example, can't find sufficient desert to power the the US?

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Only in your perfect world.

In which the ANU claims it can be done.

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40 GW at 2GWh last 20 hours.

Without any recharge at all - which will never be the case, given interconnection with 4000 klms of coast in the roaring forties, and deserts the size of India, in central and north Oz.

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It is; you still believe in unicorns and fairy farts..

No I believe in the capacity of human creativity to achieve a better world.

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Are you a part of the great reset? Wink

Yes.

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Re: The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah
Reply #114 - Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 12:25pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 10:54am:

Because their AGW theory plays into my desire for a healthy atmosphere, and free electricity which can eradicate poverty from the face of the earth.

So nothing to do with science. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 10:54am:

So there's the answer to your question.. Orthodoxy would have us starving, because of the size of the government debt Sheer madness.

That is your take. It doesn't make it so. NO manufacturing country i using it but you want Australia to be your guinea pig. Really delusional.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 10:54am:

Correct, thanks for confirming my position in that regard.

But you have shown you don't follow the "orthodox" MMT position, which does use taxes and also has some worry of inflation. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 10:54am:

Nasty.....it is an academic discipline, in which argument can be followed.

Except for you. You only pick out the parts you want. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 10:54am:

Still, you don't need a degree to follow an argument as you observed; did you follow the simple "common sense" points I outlined?

[I suppose "common sense" means plain/simple rationality, in this context].

And yet it has not been shown to work in any modern society. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 10:54am:

"Most solar panels are made from silicon wafers, more commonly known as sand. Silicon is great for our planet because it is available in abundance."

A very specific sand petal. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 10:54am:

And as for wind turbines, I dare say the Pilbara's iron ore reserves alone could supply many more times the steel required for all the world's wind turbines.

We need steel for other things beside wind turbines. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 10:54am:

I said when the sun is shining on the panel; and indeed the sun is always shining somewhere, just as the wind is always blowing somewhere...so.... backed by long term and short term storage, we can have 100% renewables.

You said the output was "When the sun is shining the PV panel produces its stated output capacity measured in kws". That is not true. The panels achieve maximum output, if the sun is not inhibited, At around Noon. I use 10am to 2pm. Others use tighter timelines of about 11am to 1pm.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 10:54am:

No, PV's produce power continuously, when exposed to sunlight, (though varying according to angle and intensity of sun)

Yes. How much they produce at any instant in time varies. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 10:54am:

You still trying to tell us the US, for example, can't find sufficient desert to power the the US?

Oh dear the desert argument again. And all the problems associated with deserts. Wind storms scouring the panel. So what is the longevity of the panels in such an environment? 1 year 2? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 10:54am:

In which the ANU claims it can be done.

Yep. Any engineers there with experience in the real world or academic types? Grin

quote author=AusbetterWorld link=1636144153/113#113 date=1638406450]No I believe in the capacity of human creativity to achieve a better world. [/quote]

So do I but the time has not yet arrived.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 10:54am:

Without any recharge at all - which will never be the case, given interconnection with 4000 klms of coast in the roaring forties, and deserts the size of India, in central and north Oz.

You mean there are never windless days in the roaring forties? never any windless days in Hobart? Grin

And the deserts again. Wink

But you forgot to tell us where all the cheap land is for these things.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 10:54am:

Quote:
Are you a part of the great reset? Wink

Yes.

That explains it lay down your king now. Grin

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Re: The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah
Reply #115 - Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 2:00pm

lee wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 12:25pm:

[quote]So nothing to do with science.

A clean healthy atmosphere has plenty to do with science.

Your mark: fail

Quote:

That is your take. It doesn't make it so. NO manufacturing country i using it but you want Australia to be your guinea pig. Really delusional.

The pandemic will possibly destroy your evil 'survival of the fittest' economic orthodoxy soon enough. Meantime stop worrying about the "debt that will be a burden on our grandchildren" mythology. Read Stephanie Kelton's best-seller 'The Deficit Myth'.

Quote:

But you have shown you don't follow the "orthodox" MMT position, which does use taxes and also has some worry of inflation.

"Inflation" due to pandemic supply chain blockages, which the mainstream are getting their knickers in a knot over ...I already explained that to you. There is only one "orthodox MMT position". Tax is not required for government spending, but taxes may be required to manage structural inflation.

Quote:

Except for you. You only pick out the parts you want.

No I have debated every point you raise, as you know. Please give an example where I have not addressed an issue.

Quote:

And yet it has not been shown to work in any modern society

That's because the forces of greed and self-interest are still determining the economic outcomes in society, despite the fact poverty in wealthy nations like Oz is obviously an absurdity.

Quote:

A very specific sand petal.
We need steel for other things beside wind turbines.

like i said, the Pilbara's ore reserves will still be largely untapped, when all the world's turbines are built. And specific silica in short supply? can you give us a link?

Quote:

Yes. How much they produce at any instant in time varies

OK.

Quote:

oh dear the desert argument again

yes, there is no shortage of useless land..

Quote:

Yep. Any engineers there with experience in the real world or academic types?

Let's get on with it: step 1, connect Showy 2 to housetop solar, off and onshore wind, and desert PV.s... and then make the necessary calculations re 100% renewables. If we have to go nuclear to complete the transition, then the public will accept nuclear.

Quote:

So do I but the time has not yet arrived.

Not time to achieve clean air? Or eradicate poverty?

Quote:

You mean there are never windless days in the roaring forties? never any windless days in Hobart?

Oh dear you forgot Marble Bar. (6 days above 46 C recently iirc.. ...quite normal)

Quote:

And the deserts again. Wink

But you forgot to tell us where all the cheap land is for these things.

You ever driven the full length of the Stuart Highway and looked around? And that's not even official 'desert'country..

Quote:

That explains it lay down your king now.

The next COP is not far away, I don't think I should do that just yet...since most the world's governments are at least paying lip service to the IPCC, driven by majorities in their electorates....

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Re: The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah
Reply #116 - Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 3:03pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 2:00pm:

lee wrote Today at 10:25am:
[quote]So nothing to do with science.

A clean healthy atmosphere has plenty to do with science.

""One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with the environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole," said Edenhofer, who co-chaired the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change working group on Mitigation of Climate Change from 2008 to 2015"

""We redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate policy," said Edenhofer.

For those who want to believe that maybe Edenhofer just misspoke and doesn't really mean that, consider that a little more than five years ago he also said that "the next world climate summit in Cancun is actually an economy summit during which the distribution of the world's resources will be negotiated."

Your mark - 0

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 2:00pm:

The pandemic will possibly destroy your evil 'survival of the fittest' economic orthodoxy soon enough.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 2:00pm:

There is only one "orthodox MMT position". Tax is not required for government spending, but taxes may be required to manage structural inflation.

So you have changed positions. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 2:00pm:

No I have debated every point you raise, as you know. Please give an example where I have not addressed an issue.

Yet you womble on them. Tax/no tax. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 2:00pm:

That's because the forces of greed and self-interest are still determining the economic outcomes in society, despite the fact poverty in wealthy nations like Oz is obviously an absurdity.

Ah yes. You will fix it with an impossibility. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 2:00pm:

like i said, the Pilbara's ore reserves will still be largely untapped, when all the world's turbines are built.

And no figures to back it up. Another of those MMT type fixes. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 2:00pm:

And specific silica in short supply? can you give us a link?

Oh dear failed reading comprehension again. Nowhere did I say it was in short supply. I said it was a specific sand. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 2:00pm:

Let's get on with it: step 1, connect Showy 2 to housetop solar, off and onshore wind, and desert PV.s... and then make the necessary calculations re 100% renewables.

That's the opposite of engineering petal. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 2:00pm:

Not time to achieve clean air? Or eradicate poverty?

Not time to get rid of fossil fuels, much as you wish it so. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 2:00pm:

Oh dear you forgot Marble Bar. (6 days above 46 C recently iirc.. ...quite normal)

Marble Bar is now in the Roaring Forties? Grin

BTW - "Marble Bar receives 159.6 clear days annually." not ideal then. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 2:00pm:

You ever driven the full length of the Stuart Highway and looked around? And that's not even official 'desert'country..

Yes. Who owns it? Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 2:00pm:

The next COP is not far away, I don't think I should do that just yet...since most the world's governments are at least paying lip service to the IPCC, driven by majorities in their electorates...

Ah the elusive majority. Grin

And nothing about my point of desert sands scouring solar panels. Wink

"Lip service" - "there is many a slips betwixt cup and lip."

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Re: The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah
Reply #117 - Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 4:06pm

lee wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 3:03pm:

""One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with the environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole," said Edenhofer, who co-chaired the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change working group on Mitigation of Climate Change from 2008 to 2015"

""We redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate policy," said Edenhofer.

For those who want to believe that maybe Edenhofer just misspoke and doesn't really mean that, consider that a little more than five years ago he also said that "the next world climate summit in Cancun is actually an economy summit during which the distribution of the world's resources will be negotiated."

Entirely irrelevant. I'm not concerned with your CO2 based debates. I'm concerned with a clean, healthy-to-breathe, atmosphere, free of poisons emitted from the filthy fossil industry. I must say I find it difficult to understand Edenhofer 's point. Of course "the distribution of the world's resources" is vital, whether AGW is real or not.

Quote:

So you have changed positions

Show me were I have "changed position" an actual quote please.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 2:00pm:

That's because the forces of greed and self-interest are still determining the economic outcomes in society, despite the fact poverty in wealthy nations like Oz is obviously an absurdity.

Quote:

Ah yes. You will fix it with an impossibility.

what YOU say is impossible, and what IS impossible, are two different things. Conservatives are hard-wired to reject the possible; "Slavery can't be eliminated", they shouted, in the UK parliament in the 18th century.

Quote:

Oh dear failed reading comprehension again. Nowhere did I say it was in short supply. I said it was a specific sand

So an entirely irrelevant remark then , since we were talking about available supply constraints. Your intelligence is now suspect as well

Quote:

That's the opposite of engineering petal.

now there is no suspicion re your intelligence at all. Engineers design, calculate and build

Quote:

Not time to get rid of fossil fuels, much as you wish it so.

The next COP will have other ideas, much as you might not wish it.

Quote:

Marble Bar is now in the Roaring Forties? Grin

Intelligence ?

Quote:

BTW - "Marble Bar receives 159.6 clear days annually." not ideal then. Wink

In conjunction with further inland as well...yes, very usable.

Quote:

Yes. Who owns it?

Irrelevant again.

Quote:

Ah the elusive majority.

Yes.. and you will lose the argument to the majority at successive COPS.

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Re: The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah
Reply #118 - Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 4:54pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 4:06pm:

I'm concerned with a clean, healthy-to-breathe, atmosphere, free of poisons emitted from the filthy fossil industry.

And yet both solar and wind depend on syable supply that is only provided by fossil fuels and hydro. (I don't class hydro in the renewables because it does have inertia.)

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 20^th, 2021 at 3:34pm:

Quote:
But how to do it with NO TAXES?

Hasn't it tweaked yet? A government with its own treasury and reserve bank can 'print' the stuff - debt free. (ie change the digits in the bank accounts of citizens, as desired by the government's chosen policies (eg, so locked-down workers can pay their essential bills).

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 4:06pm:

what YOU say is impossible, and what IS impossible, are two different things. Conservatives are hard-wired to reject the possible; "Slavery can't be eliminated", they shouted, in the UK parliament in the 18th century.

And yet we still have slavery in the 21st century. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 4:06pm:

Engineers design, calculate and build

In the real world they also COST things. The amount of steel, the amount of copper etc,etc.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 4:06pm:

The next COP will have other ideas, much as you might not wish it.

Ah the next one. They haven't succeeded in 26. why would 27 be the magic number? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 4:06pm:

Quote:
Marble Bar is now in the Roaring Forties? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
Intelligence ?

It was your response to windless days in the roaring forties. So the lack of intelligence is on your side.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 4:06pm:

In conjunction with further inland as well...yes, very usable.

Less than half a year. Your return is getting lower and lower. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 4:06pm:

lee wrote Today at 1:03pm:
""One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with the environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole," said Edenhofer, who co-chaired the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change working group on Mitigation of Climate Change from 2008 to 2015"

""We redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate policy," said Edenhofer.

For those who want to believe that maybe Edenhofer just misspoke and doesn't really mean that, consider that a little more than five years ago he also said that "the next world climate summit in Cancun is actually an economy summit during which the distribution of the world's resources will be negotiated."

Entirely irrelevant. I'm not concerned with your CO2 based debates. I'm concerned with a clean, healthy-to-breathe, atmosphere, free of poisons emitted from the filthy fossil industry. I must say I find it difficult to understand Edenhofer 's point. Of course "the distribution of the world's resources" is vital, whether AGW is real or not.

Quote:
So you have changed positions

Show me were I have "changed position" an actual quote please.

thegreatdivide wrote Today at 12:00pm:
That's because the forces of greed and self-interest are still determining the economic outcomes in society, despite the fact poverty in wealthy nations like Oz is obviously an absurdity.

Quote:
Ah yes. You will fix it with an impossibility.

what YOU say is impossible, and what IS impossible, are two different things. Conservatives are hard-wired to reject the possible; "Slavery can't be eliminated", they shouted, in the UK parliament in the 18th century.

Quote:
Oh dear failed reading comprehension again. Nowhere did I say it was in short supply. I said it was a specific sand

So an entirely irrelevant remark then , since we were talking about available supply constraints. Your intelligence is now suspect as well

Quote:
That's the opposite of engineering petal.

now there is no suspicion re your intelligence at all. Engineers design, calculate and build

Quote:
Not time to get rid of fossil fuels, much as you wish it so.

The next COP will have other ideas, much as you might not wish it.

Quote:
Marble Bar is now in the Roaring Forties? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
Intelligence ?

Quote:
BTW - "Marble Bar receives 159.6 clear days annually." not ideal then. Wink

In conjunction with further inland as well...yes, very usable.

Quote:
Yes. Who owns it?

Irrelevant again.

Not to whoever owns it. That big one in the Pilbara you like to quote is on aboriginal land.

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 4:06pm:

Yes.. and you will lose the argument to the majority at successive COPS.

Such faith. No actual data there. Grin

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Re: The COP26 Failure And More Blah, Blah, Blah
Reply #119 - Dec 3^rd, 2021 at 2:57pm

lee wrote on Dec 2^nd, 2021 at 4:54pm:

I don't class hydro in the renewables because it does have inertia.

Oh dear... Pumped hydro is a basic element of presently available renewables-storage technology. And conventional hydro is a direct generator of green electricity in its own right.

Quote:

But how to do it with NO TAXES?

A currency-issuer doesn't need to tax in order to spend, you should know that by now. Taxes may be required for other purposes, but the currency-issuer doesn't need taxes in order to spend. Apparently you think any spending of money created by the currency-issuer and spent by the currency issuer will create inflation...you are wrong. The inflation constraint for a currency-issuer is availability of resources, not the money supply.

Quote:

And yet we still have slavery in the 21st century.

Not in any legal sense.
And as or any slavery which still exists (illegally), your economic orthodoxy is responsible.... which you claim is impossible to change.

Quote:

In the real world they also COST things. The amount of steel, the amount of copper etc,etc.

I took that as understood.

Quote:

Ah the next one. They haven't succeeded in 26. why would 27 be the magic number? Roll Eyes

They are refining the emissions numbers all the time....the noose is tightening around the filthy fossil industry all the time...

Quote:

It was your response to windless days in the roaring forties. So the lack of intelligence is on your side.

Now you are insisting the sun won't shine in all of central and N. Oz; and the same time the roaring forties will stop blowing also. gosh ..a sunless, windless world...

Quote:

So you have changed positions

Nope. My position has always been build sufficient infrastructure for 100% renewables, (solar/wind +pumped hydro/batteries storage + smart grid, to eliminate filthy fossils, create free electricity and eradicate poverty. Obviously redistribution of resources (an opportunity cost) is involved but so what? No poverty, no filthy, poisonous atmosphere from the filthy poisonous fossil industry is infinitely more valuable than any quantum of 'opportunity cost'.

thegreatdivide wrote
That's because the forces of greed and self-interest are still determining the economic outcomes in society, despite the fact poverty in wealthy nations like Oz is obviously an absurdity

Yes, that's why wealthy interests are falsely critiquing MMT with all sort of nonsensical argumentation (mostly based on ignorance of what MMT really says).

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