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Frank

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Re: Socialism
Reply #315 - Jan 5^th, 2026 at 8:32pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 8:31pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 8:21pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 5:14pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 1:31pm:

No.

And no more questions about legal currency issuers?

Ok, but regardless of who made the quip, Marie's fate was was sealed by dysfunctional free market economics, while Britain was on the way to circumventing said dysfunction at home, by becomimg the world's most successful imperial pillager.

And speaking of imperial pillage (because Venezuela is now in the news):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_Caldera

The concept of "international social justice" was perhaps Caldera's most unique and original contribution to the body of Christian Democratic thought. In the speech he delivered to the joint session of the US Congress in 1970, he explained:

I believe in international social justice. Recalling Aristotle's old aphorism that justice demands that we render "to each his own" may I remind you that in the transformation of his thought in Christian philosophy, "his own" does not evoke exclusively that which belongs to each individual but also the idea of that which belongs to "society" for the "common good". No difficulty lies in transferring this concept onto the international community.

Just as "society" in the international ambit has the right to impose distinct types of relationships on its members, so the "international community," if it exists, demands that the various nations participate in proportion to their capacity in order that "all" may lead what could be termed a human existence. The rights and the obligations of the different countries should be measured, therefore, in terms of its potential and the needs of each one, making peace, progress, and harmony viable, and making it possible for us all to advance within a true friendship…"

But the turbulent nature of Latin American politics wracked by military dictatorships, combined with dramatic drops in global oil prices, wrecked both democratic impulses and economic advancement in Venezuela:

Caldera's second administration inherited and faced three adversities of great magnitude: a steep decrease in oil prices, the economic recession and high inflation of 1993, and a huge banking crisis. Caldera's government chose to respond to the fiscal deficit with a severe austerity plan that included a ten per cent cut of the federal budget in 1994 and, simultaneously, a reform of fiscal legislation and the creation of SENIAT, a new tax collection agency. In January 1994, less than a month before Rafael Caldera's inauguration, the second largest bank in Venezuela, Banco Latino, failed and was taken over by the government. As of October 1994, the government had seized more than ten failed banks. As René Salgado explains in his research on government and economics in Venezuela, "the government's bailout of the financial sector guaranteed approximately 6 billion dollars to depositors, which represented roughly 75 percent of the annual national budget and an alarming 13 percent of the gross domestic product. Additional bank failures continued throughout the year and into 1995".[37]

In agreement with the International Monetary Fund, Caldera implemented in 1996 a new economic plan, called Agenda Venezuela [es], which "increased domestic fuel prices, liberalized interest rates, unified the exchange rate system under a temporary float, abolished controls on current and capital transactions, eliminated price controls (except for medicines), and strengthened the social safety net".[38]

In 1997, gross domestic product (GDP) grew above five per cent and inflation rate was cut in half. The 1997 Asian financial crisis, however, brought oil prices to dramatic low levels, forcing government to make large budget cuts.

Hence the increasing poverty in Venezuela at that time.

Socialist Chavez was elected by popular vote, 3 times with large majorities until US sanctions related to "stolen" ie nationalized oil production, wrecked the economy.

Chavez died of cancer and Maduro was duly elected, but he failed to manage US sanctions...and here we are today, with Trump wanting to restore the profits of US oil companies in Venezuela.....

You are a loud, ignorant idiot.

Frank, you forgot to refute even one of the answers I provided to your many desperate, ignorant questions in #305.

Deplorable.

It is all idiotic, ignorant rubbish.

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Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Yadda

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Posts: 22616
A cat with a view

Re: Socialism
Reply #316 - Jan 5^th, 2026 at 11:10pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 8:16pm:

Yadda wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 5:28pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 10:14am:

......
......

Mamdani has charmed Trump (!); he should whisper in Trump's ear that a currency-issuing government doesn't need to tax the private sector to fund eg, child care, bus/rail fares, and affordable rents for low income groups,

because the resources already exist
meaning the currency-issuer can fund these vital social services
for free (ie no taxes) without causing inflation.

Not so.

WHAT IS THE 'VALUE' OF AN ASSET ?

What the market determines, ie, , until 'market failure'
require government intervention
to regulate the price.

No.

When a government 'authority' UNILATERALLY, IMPOSES THEIR OWN, ARBITRARY 'THEFT' VALUE,
UPON A PRIVATE ASSET,
BEING CONFISCATED [i.e. STOLEN] BY THE STATE.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 8:16pm:

Quote:

AND WHY DOES THE VALUE OF ANY ASSET GO UPWARD ?

Inflation, caused by excess demand for a limited good or service.

But note: in modern productive economies there is no scarcity of the essentials for living.

Duh.
Duh.
Duh. !!!!!!

Q.
In any modern society, is housing,
an essential for living ?

AND IF IT IS......
Then what about a lack of any 'market' incentive, for any private sector 'actor' to build public OR private housing ?
[.....because THE 'STATE' [the socialist state] would HAVE THE AUTHORITY,
to arbitrarily dictate 'the value' of any completed [privately owned] housing asset !!]
[because a socialist government would have the authority IN LAW, to dictate 'the value' of any asset which it determined,
that it 'needed' to confiscate ....i.e. STEAL.]

dictate = = an order or principle that must be obeyed.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 8:16pm:

Quote:

SCENARIO.....
A person has worked [hard], and after 15 years, so HE, HE, HE bought a flat with his savings
[to rent out, to supplement HIS income].

Rent seeking, so he can earn income in his sleep (the billlionaires' trick).

In a 'get rich by investing in unproductive (for the macoeconomy) housing' scheme.

A NEW SCENARIO FOR YOU....
Instead of buying/building a flat [with money earned]......

A flat, or, a vineyard, are both assets, which someone [more often an individual] built, or bought or grew.

In the case of a vineyard [for example],
why would anyone choose to plant a vineyard,
if the ruling socialist government was 'IN THE BUSINESS', of confiscating other peoples assets,
e.g. vineyards ?

i.e.
Where would be any incentive, for AN INDIVIDUAL,
to create any 'ASSET' of VALUE [for example, a vineyard],
if the socialist government was in the business of simply confiscating assets [e.g. vineyards] ?

THE REALITY WOULD BE, THAT.....
No one would plant vineyards under those circumstances, NOR, build [private] housing [if such housing was going to be subject to arbitrary government 'rent control'].

arbitrary = =
1 based on random choice or personal whim.
2 (of power or a ruling body) autocratic.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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Yadda

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Posts: 22616
A cat with a view

Re: Socialism
Reply #317 - Jan 5^th, 2026 at 11:37pm

Socialism, is and HAS ALWAYS,
devolved into,
LAWLESSNESS, MURDER and THEFT,
conducted by a corrupt, ruling 'socialist' government elite,
on behalf of its duped and lied to 'clients',
being, its OPPRESSED SLAVE 'citizens'.

devolve4 = = degenerate or be split into.

And it always morphs into a governing system,
which comes to ABSOLUTELY, reject open ACCOUNTABILITY,
for ITS OWN mis-management of the affairs of the state.

e.g.
Venezuela.

Watch this ONE MINUTE video.

------- >

Liberty, Equality, Fraternity:
Why it Can Not Work in a Godless Society

01 min
Dec 15, 2025

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thwctWiIkuI

William J. Federer https://www.youtube.com/@BillFederer

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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thegreatdivide

Gold Member

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/>

Posts: 14736
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #318 - Jan 7^th, 2026 at 3:49pm

Frank wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 8:32pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 8:31pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 8:21pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 5:14pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 1:31pm:

No.

And no more questions about legal currency issuers?

Ok, but regardless of who made the quip, Marie's fate was was sealed by dysfunctional free market economics, while Britain was on the way to circumventing said dysfunction at home, by becomimg the world's most successful imperial pillager.

And speaking of imperial pillage (because Venezuela is now in the news):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_Caldera

The concept of "international social justice" was perhaps Caldera's most unique and original contribution to the body of Christian Democratic thought. In the speech he delivered to the joint session of the US Congress in 1970, he explained:

I believe in international social justice. Recalling Aristotle's old aphorism that justice demands that we render "to each his own" may I remind you that in the transformation of his thought in Christian philosophy, "his own" does not evoke exclusively that which belongs to each individual but also the idea of that which belongs to "society" for the "common good". No difficulty lies in transferring this concept onto the international community.

Just as "society" in the international ambit has the right to impose distinct types of relationships on its members, so the "international community," if it exists, demands that the various nations participate in proportion to their capacity in order that "all" may lead what could be termed a human existence. The rights and the obligations of the different countries should be measured, therefore, in terms of its potential and the needs of each one, making peace, progress, and harmony viable, and making it possible for us all to advance within a true friendship…"

But the turbulent nature of Latin American politics wracked by military dictatorships, combined with dramatic drops in global oil prices, wrecked both democratic impulses and economic advancement in Venezuela:

Caldera's second administration inherited and faced three adversities of great magnitude: a steep decrease in oil prices, the economic recession and high inflation of 1993, and a huge banking crisis. Caldera's government chose to respond to the fiscal deficit with a severe austerity plan that included a ten per cent cut of the federal budget in 1994 and, simultaneously, a reform of fiscal legislation and the creation of SENIAT, a new tax collection agency. In January 1994, less than a month before Rafael Caldera's inauguration, the second largest bank in Venezuela, Banco Latino, failed and was taken over by the government. As of October 1994, the government had seized more than ten failed banks. As René Salgado explains in his research on government and economics in Venezuela, "the government's bailout of the financial sector guaranteed approximately 6 billion dollars to depositors, which represented roughly 75 percent of the annual national budget and an alarming 13 percent of the gross domestic product. Additional bank failures continued throughout the year and into 1995".[37]

In agreement with the International Monetary Fund, Caldera implemented in 1996 a new economic plan, called Agenda Venezuela [es], which "increased domestic fuel prices, liberalized interest rates, unified the exchange rate system under a temporary float, abolished controls on current and capital transactions, eliminated price controls (except for medicines), and strengthened the social safety net".[38]

In 1997, gross domestic product (GDP) grew above five per cent and inflation rate was cut in half. The 1997 Asian financial crisis, however, brought oil prices to dramatic low levels, forcing government to make large budget cuts.

Hence the increasing poverty in Venezuela at that time.

Socialist Chavez was elected by popular vote, 3 times with large majorities until US sanctions related to "stolen" ie nationalized oil production, wrecked the economy.

Chavez died of cancer and Maduro was duly elected, but he failed to manage US sanctions...and here we are today, with Trump wanting to restore the profits of US oil companies in Venezuela.....

You are a loud, ignorant idiot.

Frank, you forgot to refute even one of the answers I provided to your many desperate, ignorant questions in #305.

Deplorable.

It is all idiotic, ignorant rubbish.

I accept your concession of the debate - even if expressed in anger born of frustration for not being able to counter my counter arguments in #305.

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thegreatdivide

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/>

Posts: 14736
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #319 - Jan 7^th, 2026 at 4:31pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 11:10pm:

Duh
Duh.
Duh. !!!!!!

A typical Frank response...but let's read on:

Quote:

Q.
In any modern society, is housing,
an essential for living ?

??

Ask the people in living in tents in all major cities nowadays.

Quote:

AND IF IT IS......
Then what about a lack of any 'market' incentive, for any private sector 'actor' to build public OR private housing ?

Private sector actors should NOT be involved in public sector housing, full-stop; even in the phony so-called PPP profit-driven schemes in Oz today.

Quote:

[.....because THE 'STATE' [the socialist state] would HAVE THE AUTHORITY,
to arbitrarily dictate 'the value' of any completed [privately owned] housing asset !!]
[because a socialist government would have the authority IN LAW, to dictate 'the value' of any asset which it determined,
that it 'needed' to confiscate ....i.e. STEAL.]

dictate = = an order or principle that must be obeyed.

Your error: public housing is required to keep a lid on the price ("value") of private housing.

Hence Neoclassical 'privatization' free-marketeers have created the current unaffordable (for most 1st home buyers on the average wage) housing mess in Oz and around the world.

That's why the 'socialist' Menzies government (following Keynesian 'welfare state' policies) ensured sufficient public housing was available at a time of high post war immigration, to ensure low wage earners were also guaranteed housing outside of the (possibly) expensive private rental market.

Quote:

TGDScenario: Rent seeking, so the landord can earn income in his sleep (the billlionaires' trick).

In a 'get rich by investing in unproductive (for the macoeconomy) housing' scheme.

A NEW SCENARIO FOR YOU....
Instead of buying/building a flat [with money earned]......

A flat, or, a vineyard, are both assets, which someone [more often an individual] built, or bought or grew.

In the case of a vineyard [for example],
why would anyone choose to plant a vineyard,
if the ruling socialist government was 'IN THE BUSINESS', of confiscating other peoples assets,
e.g. vineyards ?

Good point, but 'socialist' governments these days don't confiscate farms, hence wine growers are free to take a chance in the free market....but oh dear, the world is losing interest in plonk or wine even.... hope you didn't have 'Treasury Wine Estates' shares in 2025....

Quote:

i.e.
Where would be any incentive, for AN INDIVIDUAL,
to create any 'ASSET' of VALUE [for example, a vineyard],
if the socialist government was in the business of simply confiscating assets [e.g. vineyards] ?

Incentive and self-interest drives us all to earn a living as best we can.
Rent-seeking - to avoid honest work - is one of the lower forms of enterprise.

Quote:

THE REALITY WOULD BE, THAT.....
No one would plant vineyards under those circumstances, NOR, build [private] housing [if such housing was going to be subject to arbitrary government 'rent control'].

Both scenarios addressed above; and people can build private housing, but government must also build sufficient public housing to ensure everyone is decently housed, regardless of private sector prices.

Quote:

arbitrary = =
1 based on random choice or personal whim.
2 (of power or a ruling body) autocratic.

Thanks for the definitions, but I knew their meanings already.

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« Last Edit: Jan 7^th, 2026 at 4:38pm by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

Gold Member

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Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 14736
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #320 - Jan 7^th, 2026 at 5:07pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 5^th, 2026 at 11:37pm:

Socialism, is and HAS ALWAYS,
devolved into,
LAWLESSNESS, MURDER and THEFT,
conducted by a corrupt, ruling 'socialist' government elite,
on behalf of its duped and lied to 'clients',
being, its OPPRESSED SLAVE 'citizens'.

I think you have 'failed states' in mind; socialist and capitalist states are represnted in equal measure.

Indeed 'freedom's' "Beacon on the Hill" is more violent than China's 'authoritarian' one-party state.

Quote:

And it always morphs into a governing system,
which comes to ABSOLUTELY, reject open ACCOUNTABILITY,
for ITS OWN mis-management of the affairs of the state.

e.g.
Venezuela.

Yes, a good example - except it's economy was ruined by US sanctions applied after the people elected socialist Chavez who nationalized the country's oil resources in order to benefit the people rather than US oil companies.

Quote:

Watch this ONE MINUTE video.

------- >

Liberty, Equality, Fraternity:
Why it Can Not Work in a Godless Society

01 min
Dec 15, 2025

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thwctWiIkuI

William J. Federer https://www.youtube.com/@BillFederer

Ah ...the morality angle - like Chevron stealing the profits gained from developing Venezuela's oil resources.

fyi, "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" can exist in a "godless society" provided people love 'morality, fairness and justice' - universals understood by all humans regardless of creed.

It's the basis of Law.

Scripture claiming to be the 'Word of God' - and its various interpretations - is sometimes a major impediment to social harmony.

Speaking of which:

https://publicmoneypublicgood.net/

Note: Public money, not taxpayer money.

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 61045 Here Gender:	Re: Socialism Reply #321 - Yesterday at 11:38am Funny how capitalism works like socialism for the wealthy? And odd how every decade of so capitalist societies turn to socialism to bail out their wealthy ecanomic failures.
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