Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 
Send Topic Print
Socialism (Read 16961 times)
Frank
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 55632
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #285 - Feb 3rd, 2025 at 9:21am
 
Technological breakthroughs come in all shapes and sizes. But Big Government, properly deployed, is an engine for technological change, especially if it works in partnership with lots of smart scientists and engineers.

Former Labor leader and long-time defence minister Kim Beazley even drolly argued there was one irrefutable argument for socialist economic development – the Pentagon.
Sheridan
Back to top
 

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
IP Logged
 
Dnarever
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 61045
Here
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #286 - Feb 3rd, 2025 at 1:38pm
 
Jasin wrote on Feb 3rd, 2025 at 7:04am:
He's as witty as a T-square


Your not.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 14750
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #287 - Feb 5th, 2025 at 10:15am
 
Frank wrote on Feb 2nd, 2025 at 9:04pm:
Dnarever wrote on Feb 2nd, 2025 at 7:27pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 25th, 2025 at 9:31pm:
Dnarever wrote on Jan 25th, 2025 at 9:13pm:
Jasin wrote on Jan 25th, 2025 at 6:03pm:
Socialism is a political failure.
Socialism is an entertainment success.

Something lost is something gained dude.
Germany failed at military, politics, religion and all things Right.
But succeeds now with all things Left like Music, Sport and great Restaurants. Wink


Quote:
Socialism is a political failure.


Yet Capitalism use it to bail the system out every time that capitalism fails.

The best societies manage to get a good blend of the two.


Well done, ducky!

https://media1.tenor.com/m/9PfeY8SJNkcAAAAd/duck-wiggle.gif


Did that Duck just drop out a couple of new relatives for your family?

You are not trying to be witty, are you, duckwit? Or are you?


Well,  you ignored his argument, preferring  to resort to an ad hominem involving something about ducks - a Frank specialty.

[And  "If you can't beat them, join them"....looks  like ducks have relatives too..]

Here is Dnarever's  argument again, just in case you deign to address it (....cough):

" Yet Capitalism use it to bail the system out every time that capitalism fails.

The best societies manage to get a good blend of the two.". 
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
tickleandrose
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 4201
Gender: female
Re: Socialism
Reply #288 - Feb 5th, 2025 at 1:15pm
 
As many of you know I am a centralist, with a touch of left leaning, especially when it comes to healthcare, education and equal rights.   I value objective facts, empathy and collectivism when in comes to make decisions about where a country should go.    I believe that this way would make better decisions than otherwise reactionary, and often, a touch selfish right wing ideology and protectionism.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 55632
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #289 - Nov 26th, 2025 at 9:56am
 
“Toutes choses sont dites déjà, mais comme personne n’écoute, il faut toujours recommencer”: everything has already been said, but since no one listens, it is necessary to say it again.

Really, the socialist impulse is a hardy perennial. How can something so frequently and so thoroughly discredited persist in the hearts of men? Some think it has something to do with the gullibility of the human animal, some (but we repeat ourselves) with the persistence of the utopian dream. We suspect there are many explanations, of which the raw desire for power is an unedifying but also underrated aspect. We also favor the explanatory power of original sin, which has profound psychological as well as theological implication for many of the more farcical aspects of human experience. What is more farcical than socialism?

At any rate, the career of socialism is a powerful argument for the phenomenon of life after death. Remember: the death of socialism in the United States (except on college campuses) had been solemnly pronounced over and over during the 1980s and 1990s. In the past several years, however, we have had multiple sightings of the beast. Zohran Mamdani is only a particularly flagrant contemporary presentation.

Given the prevalence among the tender-hearted of socialist fantasy, on the one hand, and animus toward the free market, on the other, we thought it might be useful to say a few words in defense of the latter. In The Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith noted the paradox, or seeming paradox, of the free market: that the more individuals were left free to follow their own ends, the more their activities were “led by an invisible hand to promote” ends that aided the common good.

Private pursuits conduced to public goods—that is the beneficent alchemy of the free market. (We forbear to say “capitalism” because the term, though not coined by Marx, was popularized by him as a synonym for “exploitation,” when in fact its effect has been almost wholly about liberation.) In The Road to Serfdom and other works, Friedrich Hayek expanded on Smith’s fundamental insight, pointing out that the spontaneous order created and maintained by competitive market forces leads to greater prosperity than a planned economy.

The sentimentalist cannot wrap his mind, or his heart, around that datum. He (or she) cannot understand why “society” should not favor “cooperation” (a pleasing-sounding word) over “competition” (much harsher), since in any competition there are losers, which is bad, and winners, which may be even worse. The unhappy truth is that socialism is a version of sentimentality.
...
No mere empirical observation, it seems—let it be repeated innumerable times—can spoil the pleasures of socialist sentimentality. This unworldliness is tied to another common trait of intellectuals: their contempt for money and the world of commerce. The socialist intellectual, especially the well-heeled one, eschews the profit motive as something beneath his dignity. He recommends instead increased government control of the economy. He feels, Hayek notes, that “to employ a hundred people is . . . exploitation, but to command the same number [is] honorable.”
The really frightening question that wholesale economic planning raises is not whether we are free to pursue our most important ends, but who determines what those “most important ends” are to be.Is it battling “climate change”? Abolishing “racism”? Forbidding gas stoves or air conditioning? “Whoever,” Hayek notes, “has sole control of the means must also determine which ends are to be served, which values are to be rated higher and which lower—in short, what men should believe and strive for.” History reminds us that more government intervention and control means higher taxes, greater inefficiency, and economic stagnation.
Back to top
 

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 55632
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #290 - Jan 5th, 2026 at 8:49am
 

Real communism has never been tried
https://x.com/damienslash/status/1985799572011057285
Back to top
 

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
IP Logged
 
Yadda
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 22616
A cat with a view
Re: Socialism
Reply #291 - Jan 5th, 2026 at 9:23am
 
Frank wrote on Jan 5th, 2026 at 8:49am:

Real communism has never been tried
https://x.com/damienslash/status/1985799572011057285




He's so optimistic !!   ...i'll give him that.

i.e.
'Now that Mamdani in NY, will be [has been] elected Mayor,
we will all see an example of the 'virtue', of real communism.'


Yeah.   Tongue      Tongue



I predict, that when Mamdani's 'free for the poor' economic schemes fail and/or do not eventuate,
Mamdani will choose to blame someone else, for his failure.

Hmmm.

I wonder who Mamdani could possibly blame [for the failure of his 'free stuff' scheme] ???
/sarc off



THE REALITY....
Mamdani's promises, rely upon him, Mamdani,
having access to the property and wealth which rightfully [in law] belongs to others.

Communism IS thievery.

That is the truth,

It is, the theft, justified through our own greed and envy [lust],
for other people possessions and wealth.



The Ten Commandments [Exod 20]......
#08 Thou shalt not steal.
#10. Thou shalt not covet....any thing that is thy neighbour's.




n.b.
Jesus encouraged us to give to the needy poor.

But Jesus DID NOT suggest it was lawful,
for us to take [steal], the property or wealth of others....

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.




Back to top
 

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
IP Logged
 
Dnarever
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 61045
Here
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #292 - Jan 5th, 2026 at 9:55am
 
Jasin wrote on Feb 3rd, 2025 at 7:04am:
He's as witty as a T-square


Your not as witty as a T-square not even close.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 14750
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #293 - Jan 5th, 2026 at 10:14am
 
Frank wrote on Jan 5th, 2026 at 8:49am:
Real communism has never been tried
https://x.com/damienslash/status/1985799572011057285


'Communism' is an evolving economic theory, though its goal - common prosperity aka the general welfare  (NOT 'equality of outcome') - is foundational. 

Now, an economy like the US which is churning out billionaires while median wages are stagnating, is economically dysfunctional and morally bankrupt. 

Obviously only government can manage the macroeconomy, to achieve common prosperity.

Mamdani will face the sheer moral bankruptcy of the super wealthy who always claim they will flee the very economy which made many of them richer than the entire GDPs of many entire nations, if they have to pay higher taxes to ensure everyone can be decently housed (for example).

Mamdani has charmed Trump (!); he should whisper in Trump's ear that a currency-issuing government doesn't need to tax the private sector to fund eg, child care, bus/rail fares, and affordable rents for low income groups, because the resources already exist  - meaning the currency-issuer can fund these vital social services for free (ie no taxes)  without causing inflation.

Yadda's rant about 'free stuff',  in the face of stagnant  median wages amid soaring billionaire wealth, is both morally bankrupt and economically illiterate.....
and he deigns to quote the Bible.....






 



Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 14750
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #294 - Jan 5th, 2026 at 10:33am
 
Frank wrote on Nov 26th, 2025 at 9:56am:
“Toutes choses sont dites déjà, mais comme personne n’écoute, il faut toujours recommencer”: everything has already been said, but since no one listens, it is necessary to say it again.

Really, the socialist impulse is a hardy perennial.


Yes, and Mamdani proves it will never die, even in the richest economy on the planet.

Quote:
How can something so frequently and so thoroughly discredited persist in the hearts of men?


The error: the socialist impulse is a reflection of the desire for justice, fairness and morality in the 'hearts' of men , despite their concomitant  innate self-interest.

The rest of the post is GIGO; and  the final sentence:

" more government intervention and control means higher taxes, greater inefficiency, and economic stagnation"

assumes the general  population are ignorant Neaclassical ideologues who believe  currency-issuing governments must balance their budgets like householders must balance their budgets. 

Fact is currency-issuing governments don't need to tax - though the revolting extremes in personal wealth seen today can be corrected by taxing extreme wealth.

So for those who want to wade through morally bankrupt Neoclassical dogma, with Smith and Hayek as a 'bonus' (Marx  has nothing to do with the Neoclassical delusion),  here it is again:

Quote:
Some think it has something to do with the gullibility of the human animal, some (but we repeat ourselves) with the persistence of the utopian dream. We suspect there are many explanations, of which the raw desire for power is an unedifying but also underrated aspect. We also favor the explanatory power of original sin, which has profound psychological as well as theological implication for many of the more farcical aspects of human experience. What is more farcical than socialism?

At any rate, the career of socialism is a powerful argument for the phenomenon of life after death. Remember: the death of socialism in the United States (except on college campuses) had been solemnly pronounced over and over during the 1980s and 1990s. In the past several years, however, we have had multiple sightings of the beast. Zohran Mamdani is only a particularly flagrant contemporary presentation.

Given the prevalence among the tender-hearted of socialist fantasy, on the one hand, and animus toward the free market, on the other, we thought it might be useful to say a few words in defense of the latter. In The Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith noted the paradox, or seeming paradox, of the free market: that the more individuals were left free to follow their own ends, the more their activities were “led by an invisible hand to promote” ends that aided the common good.

Private pursuits conduced to public goods—that is the beneficent alchemy of the free market. (We forbear to say “capitalism” because the term, though not coined by Marx, was popularized by him as a synonym for “exploitation,” when in fact its effect has been almost wholly about liberation.) In The Road to Serfdom and other works, Friedrich Hayek expanded on Smith’s fundamental insight, pointing out that the spontaneous order created and maintained by competitive market forces leads to greater prosperity than a planned economy.

The sentimentalist cannot wrap his mind, or his heart, around that datum. He (or she) cannot understand why “society” should not favor “cooperation” (a pleasing-sounding word) over “competition” (much harsher), since in any competition there are losers, which is bad, and winners, which may be even worse. The unhappy truth is that socialism is a version of sentimentality.
...
No mere empirical observation, it seems—let it be repeated innumerable times—can spoil the pleasures of socialist sentimentality. This unworldliness is tied to another common trait of intellectuals: their contempt for money and the world of commerce. The socialist intellectual, especially the well-heeled one, eschews the profit motive as something beneath his dignity. He recommends instead increased government control of the economy. He feels, Hayek notes, that “to employ a hundred people is . . . exploitation, but to command the same number [is] honorable.”
The really frightening question that wholesale economic planning raises is not whether we are free to pursue our most important ends, but who determines what those “most important ends” are to be.Is it battling “climate change”? Abolishing “racism”? Forbidding gas stoves or air conditioning? “Whoever,” Hayek notes, “has sole control of the means must also determine which ends are to be served, which values are to be rated higher and which lower—in short, what men should believe and strive for.” History reminds us that more government intervention and control means higher taxes, greater inefficiency, and economic stagnation.

Back to top
« Last Edit: Jan 5th, 2026 at 10:48am by thegreatdivide »  
 
IP Logged
 
tallowood
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Израиль Навсегда

Posts: 6580
Re: Socialism
Reply #295 - Jan 5th, 2026 at 11:14am
 
Quote:
Mamdani proves it will never die, even in the richest economy on the planet.


Karl Marx viewed socialism as a transitional phase from capitalism to communism.
He did not believe socialism could be successfully established in underdeveloped or agrarian societies without the technological and industrial foundation laid by capitalism.
Back to top
 

עַם יִשְרָאֵל חַי
 
IP Logged
 
Jasin
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 55130
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #296 - Jan 5th, 2026 at 11:24am
 
Socialism is when politics holds a cocktail 🍸 🍹 party on taxpayers money.
Back to top
 

AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 55632
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #297 - Jan 5th, 2026 at 11:30am
 
How does Paris get fed? - without any government planning.


That is the classic illustration or parable of how the free market works.
Thank you, M. Bastiat.

Back to top
 

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 14750
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #298 - Jan 5th, 2026 at 12:01pm
 
Jasin wrote on Jan 5th, 2026 at 11:24am:
Socialism is when politics holds a cocktail 🍸 🍹 party on taxpayers money.


Jasin repeating the  'taxpayer money' narrative -  ignorant nonsense from an economic ignoramus who believes currency-issuing governments need to tax or borrow from the citizens (who are USERS of the currency). 

Even so, no one will be "partying" on taxpayer money under Mamdani, though they  may be able to afford housing, transport and childcare in a city with more private wealth than many entire nations. 
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
thegreatdivide
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics<br
/>

Posts: 14750
Gender: male
Re: Socialism
Reply #299 - Jan 5th, 2026 at 12:06pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 5th, 2026 at 11:30am:
How does Paris get fed? - without any government planning.


That is the classic illustration or parable of how the free market works.
Thank you, M. Bastiat.


Your error: modern economies are much more than getting food to cities.

Mamdani was elected because the free market ISN'T working in NY.

Despite free market parables.....

Do try to keep up.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 18 19 20 21 22 
Send Topic Print