Another frontman for Chinese interests.

Wouldn't trust him as far as I could kick him.

Yet to see how he can run an iron ore & mining empire & supposedly go "green".

Having doubts about Forrest is fair enough, he's a player, but there's plenty of interest in hydrogen. The former chief scientist Alan Finkel is a strong proponent of it. He's a neuroscientist but sounds like he's done his research with the appropriate scientists and economists, and there's huge upside in exporting H, particularly to Japan.

Finkel also likes nuclear, and says it stacks up scientifically and economically, but getting the public to go along with it is too hard.

Funny thing about hydrogen power is when you ask the average dolt on the street, they think it's dangerous because of the hindenburg and the H bomb 

lee wrote on Oct 12^th, 2021 at 12:07pm:

issuevoter wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 7:03am:


Yes. Now all he has to do is build them big enough. Which costs a lot.

"CSIRO has been leading the development of a roadmap for the Australian solar fuels industry. The roadmap aims to define the research, development and demonstration priorities to establish and foster an industry using solar thermal technologies. During the three-year project, the cost of photovoltaic (PV) technologies has significantly reduced, while interest has grown in the production of hydrogen from electrolysis. This report, commissioned by ARENA, assesses hydrogen production from PV and electrolysis. It is intended as both a standalone document and a useful reference point for comparison with solar thermal technologies. It considers the likely current cost as well as a ‘realistic, optimistic’ view of future possibilities, as presented in the solar thermal fuels roadmap.

Our evaluation of the current and future (2030) cost of hydrogen from PV and electrolysis shows that the potential cost using currently available technology is approximately $18.70/kg H2. The base case system consists of a PV module with power electronics connected to a proton exchange membrane electrolysis plant, which produces hydrogen only when the PV system is producing power. The assessment is based on an estimated system cost of $2300/kW for a large scale, nontracking PV system with a mid-range capacity factor of 20.5% and a weighted average cost of capital of 6.4%, as recently published by the CO2CRC (2015). It is assumed that the uninstalled cost of the electrolyser and associated components is $2,285/kW, in line with recent estimates from the European Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking (Bertuccioli et al., 2014). Significant cost reductions are predicted for both these technologies, cutting the estimated cost of hydrogen to $9.10/kg by 2030."

https://arena.gov.au/knowledge-bank/cost-assessment-of-hydrogen-production-from-...

1Kg of Hydrogen has the energy of about 3.2Kg (4.5L) of petrol.

John_Taverner wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 1:33pm:


Which is causing grid instability.

John_Taverner wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 1:33pm:


Because Coal fired plant can't ramp up quickly.

John_Taverner wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 1:33pm:


And cause even more grid instability.

John_Taverner wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 1:33pm:


Can you show where it is a government project?

Did you see that in the UK they are blaming the lack of wind on "global stilling" because ...climate change?

John_Taverner wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 1:48pm:


You mean the one that caught fire?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/tesla-battery-fire-moorabool-geelong/1003...

You know the type lithium ion, burns well, melts steel, highly toxic.

"The Future NEM forum of November 5 attended by representatives of AEMO, major transmission and distribution networks and various associations provided one clear take-out—that there is no detailed plan for a stable and resilient NEM as renewables continue to grow. Similar observation can be made of the Energy Security Board because of its inaction to deal with the single most important facet of the evolving NEM: system strength.

In the plethora of commentary on Australia’s electricity future, system strength (a very meaningful term in electrical engineering) doesn’t get a mention—it’s as if it is seen as a reactionary impulse against wind and solar generation. In fact, system strength maintenance in the NEM will facilitate the continued growth of wind and solar, including ‘behind the meter’ distributed generation.

System strength requires that we not diminish further the current NEM stock of synchronous inertia and spinning reserve, and this has serious financial implications. In short, a new market for capacity—megawatts instead of megawatt-hours is urgently needed—but there’s more.

As an alternating current network, NEM stability and resilience require two things; a narrowly controlled rate of change of frequency (RoCoF) and voltage stability. Both wind and solar connect to the NEM via power-electronics inverters and neither possesses native features of voltage and frequency stability because they do not have inertia. Proponents of green power talk around this by pointing to small electricity systems like King Island, the Canaries, Hawaii islands etc. conveniently forgetting that many homes in these places have their own backup generators, and that no network operator runs the island grids without a level of synchronous inertia, e.g.: diesel or gas turbines.

System strength not only requires the maintenance of spinning reserve but also control. AEMO does have a measure of control of the NEM, for example in the case of South Australia, islanding the State on some occasions when instability threatens the security of the rest of the NEM. However, AEMO is hampered in its task through the lack of a NEM-wide comprehensive, real-time information and control system. The task, increasingly pressing, is to marshal the appropriate resources in real time, be they batteries, synchronous condensers, and spinning reserve. As to batteries, in as much as they also connect via inverters, they can only work effectively in the presence of rotating inertia as provided by synchronous generators.

The integrated systems plan of AEMO, which also was a subject at the forum, did not attract meaningful discussion. AEMO’s powerlessness in its ability to force distribution networks to maintain a minimum level of power demand stability is the main reason why the growing penetration of distributed resources in distribution grids will be the cause of more islanding incidents of large portions of the NEM grid. The control of ‘behind the meter’ solar in order to provide zone substation stability is unavoidable and can be made politically acceptable through the use of AI to limit the impact on individual prosumers. The refusal so far to engage with the need for limiting power fluctuation at zone substations is setting the NEM up for an unstable future.

Forums providing opportunities for discussion and the interaction of ideas notwithstanding, it is now high time to come to engineering grips for the NEM, requiring not only new markets for system strength so as to limit the planned retirements of synchronous generators, but to also draft new grid codes for substation stability and to provide engineering oversight as well as new connection codes for household, commercial and industrial solar generation."

https://esdnews.com.au/the-future-of-the-nem/

John_Taverner wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 4:08pm:


You are the one brought up the batteries. So what could go wrong IF they catch fire? Oh die of toxic poisoning. hardly a challenge.

How long would 300Mw power the NEM?

John_Taverner wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 4:08pm:


No just print more money.

lee wrote on Oct 13^th, 2021 at 4:38pm:


Aha! You think that it's intended as a battery backup. Read one of your own cut and pasted replies if you want to know their true purpose. I'm not going to spoon feed you.

Quote:


As I said, it's not intended to be a battery back-up in case of failure. Nothing you quoted above actually says that.

Inertia - that's a good word. What does it mean in terms of electricity supply? (you just said it)

You have no idea what you're talking about.       

Grid inertia is a form of energy storage which addresses imbalances between supply and demand on electricity grids over very short time periods, typically on the order of fractions of a second to several of seconds.  Battery back-up is a totally different concept.  It's used in some industrial processes so that you can shut them down safely in the event of power disruptions. 

What you're describing is a short circuit.  1Ω ? Really?

You need an island mode power plant to handle longer term disruptions.   

I must stop replying to you. It's pointless.