Australian Politics Forum - The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer...

Brian Ross Moderator Offline Representative of me Posts: 44607	The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer... Sep 1^st, 2021 at 2:25pm Interesting...The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer. Rather, it fuels a fear of perpetual military threat
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Belgarion Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5818 Gender:	Re: The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer... Reply #1 - Sep 1^st, 2021 at 5:20pm No one with any knowledge of the treaty has has ever believed it guaranteed US military assistance, however we are better off with it than without. The author is living in a fantasy world.
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Brian Ross

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Re: The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer...
Reply #2 - Sep 1^st, 2021 at 6:19pm

I have been a long time critic of the A**US Treaty. It guarantees nothing, except a conference between the signatories. The US was very careful to make that a part of the treaty after the US Congress criticised that of the NATO treaties "attack on one means an attack on all," provisions. If the US wanted to help defend Australia, it would do so, treaty or no treaty. The A**US treaty was sold by the Tory Government and has come to mean something it doesn't provide for. It has made Australia subservient to Washington and the promise of a "maybe". We have engaged in "Insurance Policy" diplomacy as a consequence and it has cost Australian lives for little return. Roll Eyes

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 77711 Gender:	Re: The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer... Reply #3 - Sep 1^st, 2021 at 7:13pm All the ANZUS treaty does is guarantee our soldiers will join the US in every war they go to out of fear that if we don't then one day we may need them and they won't come.
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Belgarion

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Re: The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer...
Reply #4 - Sep 1^st, 2021 at 9:04pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 1^st, 2021 at 6:19pm:

I have been a long time critic of the A**US Treaty. It guarantees nothing, except a conference between the signatories. The US was very careful to make that a part of the treaty after the US Congress criticised that of the NATO treaties "attack on one means an attack on all," provisions. If the US wanted to help defend Australia, it would do so, treaty or no treaty. The A**US treaty was sold by the Tory Government and has come to mean something it doesn't provide for. It has made Australia subservient to Washington and the promise of a "maybe". We have engaged in "Insurance Policy" diplomacy as a consequence and it has cost Australian lives for little return. Roll Eyes

The treaty could certainly to with some re-negotiation, but it does not oblige us to get involved in any US military action either. That successive governments have done this is a reflection on them, not on the treaty itself.

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Brian Ross

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Re: The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer...
Reply #5 - Sep 1^st, 2021 at 9:17pm

Belgarion wrote on Sep 1^st, 2021 at 9:04pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 1^st, 2021 at 6:19pm:

I have been a long time critic of the A**US Treaty. It guarantees nothing, except a conference between the signatories. The US was very careful to make that a part of the treaty after the US Congress criticised that of the NATO treaties "attack on one means an attack on all," provisions. If the US wanted to help defend Australia, it would do so, treaty or no treaty. The A**US treaty was sold by the Tory Government and has come to mean something it doesn't provide for. It has made Australia subservient to Washington and the promise of a "maybe". We have engaged in "Insurance Policy" diplomacy as a consequence and it has cost Australian lives for little return. Roll Eyes

The treaty could certainly to with some re-negotiation, but it does not oblige us to get involved in any US military action either. That successive governments have done this is a reflection on them, not on the treaty itself.

Then why do we have such a treaty if it means we sacrifice Australian lives to further Washington's designs on the world? Roll Eyes

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Bobby.

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Re: The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer...
Reply #6 - Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 12:44pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 1^st, 2021 at 9:17pm:

Belgarion wrote on Sep 1^st, 2021 at 9:04pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 1^st, 2021 at 6:19pm:

I have been a long time critic of the A**US Treaty. It guarantees nothing, except a conference between the signatories. The US was very careful to make that a part of the treaty after the US Congress criticised that of the NATO treaties "attack on one means an attack on all," provisions. If the US wanted to help defend Australia, it would do so, treaty or no treaty. The A**US treaty was sold by the Tory Government and has come to mean something it doesn't provide for. It has made Australia subservient to Washington and the promise of a "maybe". We have engaged in "Insurance Policy" diplomacy as a consequence and it has cost Australian lives for little return. Roll Eyes

The treaty could certainly to with some re-negotiation, but it does not oblige us to get involved in any US military action either. That successive governments have done this is a reflection on them, not on the treaty itself.

Then why do we have such a treaty if it means we sacrifice Australian lives to further Washington's designs on the world? Roll Eyes

Because the people who really understand strategic studies
know that we are safer if we buddy up to the Yanks.
It's an emotional card we can play if we're ever attacked.

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Brian Ross

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Re: The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer...
Reply #7 - Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 1:48pm

Bobby. wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 12:44pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 1^st, 2021 at 9:17pm:

Belgarion wrote on Sep 1^st, 2021 at 9:04pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 1^st, 2021 at 6:19pm:

I have been a long time critic of the A**US Treaty. It guarantees nothing, except a conference between the signatories. The US was very careful to make that a part of the treaty after the US Congress criticised that of the NATO treaties "attack on one means an attack on all," provisions. If the US wanted to help defend Australia, it would do so, treaty or no treaty. The A**US treaty was sold by the Tory Government and has come to mean something it doesn't provide for. It has made Australia subservient to Washington and the promise of a "maybe". We have engaged in "Insurance Policy" diplomacy as a consequence and it has cost Australian lives for little return. Roll Eyes

The treaty could certainly to with some re-negotiation, but it does not oblige us to get involved in any US military action either. That successive governments have done this is a reflection on them, not on the treaty itself.

Then why do we have such a treaty if it means we sacrifice Australian lives to further Washington's designs on the world? Roll Eyes

Because the people who really understand strategic studies
know that we are safer if we buddy up to the Yanks.
It's an emotional card we can play if we're ever attacked.

That really worked for the South Vietnamese and the Afghanis, now didn't it, Bobby? Simplistic and naive describes your ideas, I think. RealPolitics suggest if Washington wants to defend us, it would, treaty or no treaty. It all depends on whose el Presidente and what the Congress thinks on the matter... Roll Eyes

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Bobby.

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Re: The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer...
Reply #8 - Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 1:59pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 1:48pm:

That really worked for the South Vietnamese and the Afghanis, now didn't it, Bobby? Simplistic and naive describes your ideas, I think. RealPolitics suggest if Washington wants to defend us, it would, treaty or no treaty. It all depends on whose el Presidente and what the Congress thinks on the matter... Roll Eyes

Brian -
the Yanks don't ask us what to do - they tell us.

We are the unofficial 51st state of the USA.

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Brian Ross

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Re: The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer...
Reply #9 - Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 2:13pm

Bobby. wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 1:59pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 1:48pm:

That really worked for the South Vietnamese and the Afghanis, now didn't it, Bobby? Simplistic and naive describes your ideas, I think. RealPolitics suggest if Washington wants to defend us, it would, treaty or no treaty. It all depends on whose el Presidente and what the Congress thinks on the matter... Roll Eyes

Brian -
the Yanks don't ask us what to do - they tell us.

We are the unofficial 51st state of the USA.

Seems your happy with that, Bobby. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

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Bobby.

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Re: The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer...
Reply #10 - Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 2:25pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 2:13pm:

Bobby. wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 1:59pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 1:48pm:

That really worked for the South Vietnamese and the Afghanis, now didn't it, Bobby? Simplistic and naive describes your ideas, I think. RealPolitics suggest if Washington wants to defend us, it would, treaty or no treaty. It all depends on whose el Presidente and what the Congress thinks on the matter... Roll Eyes

Brian -
the Yanks don't ask us what to do - they tell us.

We are the unofficial 51st state of the USA.

Seems your happy with that, Bobby. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

We haven't withdrawn from it after almost 70 years.
Greater minds than ours have kept it.

The ANZUS Treaty which was signed by the United States, Australia and New Zealand on 1 September 1951, and came into force on 29 April 1952, is the security element of a broader relationship between the United States and Australia.

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Brian Ross

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Re: The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer...
Reply #11 - Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 3:21pm

Bobby. wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 2:25pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 2:13pm:

Bobby. wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 1:59pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 1:48pm:

That really worked for the South Vietnamese and the Afghanis, now didn't it, Bobby? Simplistic and naive describes your ideas, I think. RealPolitics suggest if Washington wants to defend us, it would, treaty or no treaty. It all depends on whose el Presidente and what the Congress thinks on the matter... Roll Eyes

Brian -
the Yanks don't ask us what to do - they tell us.

We are the unofficial 51st state of the USA.

Seems your happy with that, Bobby. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

We haven't withdrawn from it after almost 70 years.
Greater minds than ours have kept it.

The ANZUS Treaty which was signed by the United States, Australia and New Zealand on 1 September 1951, and came into force on 29 April 1952, is the security element of a broader relationship between the United States and Australia.

It is, to Australia. To the US it was designed to allow a "soft peace" with Japan. Australia and New Zealand were worried any peace with Japan would see a rerun of the Versailles Peace with Germany and Japan would be resurgent again in 20 years or so. The US sought a "soft peace" to allow Japan to be used against Communism. The two came together in the A**US Treaty. Australia believed it was getting a security guarantee, Washington believed it was buying off the South Pacific dominions. New Zealand was roped into it and believed it was getting an alliance which wasn't that important to it. Canberra has been fooling itself ever since as to what the A**US Treaty was... Roll Eyes

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Bobby.

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Re: The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer...
Reply #12 - Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 3:28pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 3:21pm:

It is, to Australia. To the US it was designed to allow a "soft peace" with Japan. Australia and New Zealand were worried any peace with Japan would see a rerun of the Versailles Peace with Germany and Japan would be resurgent again in 20 years or so. The US sought a "soft peace" to allow Japan to be used against Communism. The two came together in the A**US Treaty. Australia believed it was getting a security guarantee, Washington believed it was buying off the South Pacific dominions. New Zealand was roped into it and believed it was getting an alliance which wasn't that important to it. Canberra has been fooling itself ever since as to what the A**US Treaty was... Roll Eyes

What about the nuclear umbrella which the USA provides to us?

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Brian Ross

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Re: The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer...
Reply #13 - Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 4:00pm

Bobby. wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 3:28pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 3:21pm:

It is, to Australia. To the US it was designed to allow a "soft peace" with Japan. Australia and New Zealand were worried any peace with Japan would see a rerun of the Versailles Peace with Germany and Japan would be resurgent again in 20 years or so. The US sought a "soft peace" to allow Japan to be used against Communism. The two came together in the A**US Treaty. Australia believed it was getting a security guarantee, Washington believed it was buying off the South Pacific dominions. New Zealand was roped into it and believed it was getting an alliance which wasn't that important to it. Canberra has been fooling itself ever since as to what the A**US Treaty was... Roll Eyes

What about the nuclear umbrella which the USA provides to us?

What about it? It's cheap and has never been used. Do you think the USA would risk a nuclear conflagration if Australia was threatened with nuclear weapons? I don't. Roll Eyes

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Belgarion

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Re: The ANZUS treaty does not make Australia safer...
Reply #14 - Sep 2^nd, 2021 at 5:01pm

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 1^st, 2021 at 9:17pm:

Belgarion wrote on Sep 1^st, 2021 at 9:04pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 1^st, 2021 at 6:19pm:

I have been a long time critic of the A**US Treaty. It guarantees nothing, except a conference between the signatories. The US was very careful to make that a part of the treaty after the US Congress criticised that of the NATO treaties "attack on one means an attack on all," provisions. If the US wanted to help defend Australia, it would do so, treaty or no treaty. The A**US treaty was sold by the Tory Government and has come to mean something it doesn't provide for. It has made Australia subservient to Washington and the promise of a "maybe". We have engaged in "Insurance Policy" diplomacy as a consequence and it has cost Australian lives for little return. Roll Eyes

The treaty could certainly to with some re-negotiation, but it does not oblige us to get involved in any US military action either. That successive governments have done this is a reflection on them, not on the treaty itself.

Then why do we have such a treaty if it means we sacrifice Australian lives to further Washington's designs on the world? Roll Eyes

As I said Brian, that is the fault of Australian governments who have allowed themselves and the ADF to be used that way, not the treaty itself. Far better we have some sort of formal agreement, however flawed, than nothing at all. Roll Eyes

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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Voltaire.....(possibly)

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