Australian Politics Forum - Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks

tickleandrose

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Re: Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks
Reply #45 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:39am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:33am:

tickleandrose wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:25am:

Gordon wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:17am:

Democracy and modernity was handed to them with a cherry on top but they didn't want it.

Afghanistan is Taliban and Taliban is Afghanistan.

Gordon, aside, from select regions, and the capital, there was never any democracy or modernity for the general population of Afghanistan.

You cant give democracy via a handful of military bases, guns and humvees. It just wont happen.

Those living in established democracies forget that democracy was not given by the gods; it evolved from internal socio-political baptisms of fire.

As well as through very very long periods of time. The rights will come to those in power first, and then the women, and then the minority, through years, if not centuries of change.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks
Reply #46 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:53am

tickleandrose wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:39am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:33am:

tickleandrose wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:25am:

Gordon wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:17am:

Democracy and modernity was handed to them with a cherry on top but they didn't want it.

Afghanistan is Taliban and Taliban is Afghanistan.

Gordon, aside, from select regions, and the capital, there was never any democracy or modernity for the general population of Afghanistan.

You cant give democracy via a handful of military bases, guns and humvees. It just wont happen.

Those living in established democracies forget that democracy was not given by the gods; it evolved from internal socio-political baptisms of fire.

As well as through very very long periods of time. The rights will come to those in power first, and then the women, and then the minority, through years, if not centuries of change.

Yes... Over 1000 years for modern democracy.

From William I (the conqueror). to King John's Magna Carta, to the Protestant Reformation, to the English Civil War, to the abolition of the divine right of sovereigns, to the rise of sovereign Parliaments, to the Scottish Enlightenment, to the American Revolution, to constitutional monarchies, to the American Civil War, through two world wars, through the defeat of totalitarianism (in western Europe then largely through eastern Europe)...

To name some of those baptisms.

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chimera

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Re: Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks
Reply #47 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 10:31am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 7:51am:

Why? The US never intended to conquer Afghanistan.

" US launched Operation Enduring Freedom on October 7, 2001, with the United Kingdom. The two were later joined by other forces, including the Northern Alliance troops on the ground. The US and its allies rapidly drove the Taliban from power by December 17, 2001."

The Japanese emperor stayed in authority after 1945 but he was conquered and surrendered. The US and UK owned Afghanistan.

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Frank

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Re: Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks
Reply #48 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 10:45am

Gordon wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:17am:

Democracy and modernity was handed to them with a cherry on top but they didn't want it.

Afghanistan is Taliban and Taliban is Afghanistan.

Oh, but they are just like us, they want the same as us for their children, to live in peace, to give their sons and especially daughters a nice future, education, hope, prosperity, goats and to practice their most feminist religion in peace. You are just persecuting them because they worship differently, you white supremacist patriarchal Islamophobe. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

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Frank

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Re: Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks
Reply #49 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 11:00am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:33am:

tickleandrose wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:25am:

Gordon wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:17am:

Democracy and modernity was handed to them with a cherry on top but they didn't want it.

Afghanistan is Taliban and Taliban is Afghanistan.

Gordon, aside, from select regions, and the capital, there was never any democracy or modernity for the general population of Afghanistan.

You cant give democracy via a handful of military bases, guns and humvees. It just wont happen.

Those living in established democracies forget that democracy was not given by the gods; it evolved from internal socio-political baptisms of fire.

And very importantly, secular democracy has no presence in Islam. People are not created equal by Allah. Ideas matter and the idea of secular democracy is alien, even hostile, to the ideas of Islam. It is always an imposed facade, corrupted and deformed where it is adopted by Muslim countries.
What did the Afghans do after the Russians left? They had themselves a vicious civil war with the Taliban victorious. Thank you, Pakistan.

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athos Gold Member Offline Re-educate barbarians Posts: 6421 Hong Kong Gender:	Re: Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks Reply #50 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 11:01am
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks
Reply #51 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 11:05am

Frank wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 11:00am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:33am:

tickleandrose wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:25am:

Gordon wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:17am:

Democracy and modernity was handed to them with a cherry on top but they didn't want it.

Afghanistan is Taliban and Taliban is Afghanistan.

Gordon, aside, from select regions, and the capital, there was never any democracy or modernity for the general population of Afghanistan.

You cant give democracy via a handful of military bases, guns and humvees. It just wont happen.

Those living in established democracies forget that democracy was not given by the gods; it evolved from internal socio-political baptisms of fire.

And very importantly, secular democracy has no presence in Islam. People are not created equal by Allah. Ideas matter and the idea of secular democracy is alien, even hostile, to the ideas of Islam. It is always an imposed facade, corrupted and deformed where it is adopted by Muslim countries.
What did the Afghans do after the Russians left? They had themselves a vicious civil war with the Taliban victorious. Thank you, Pakistan.

People are not created equal... Children work that out before they're 10.

Orthodox Christianity is fundamentally opposed to secular democracy by definition.

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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks
Reply #52 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 11:09am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:53am:

tickleandrose wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:39am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:33am:

tickleandrose wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:25am:

Gordon wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:17am:

Democracy and modernity was handed to them with a cherry on top but they didn't want it.

Afghanistan is Taliban and Taliban is Afghanistan.

Gordon, aside, from select regions, and the capital, there was never any democracy or modernity for the general population of Afghanistan.

You cant give democracy via a handful of military bases, guns and humvees. It just wont happen.

Those living in established democracies forget that democracy was not given by the gods; it evolved from internal socio-political baptisms of fire.

As well as through very very long periods of time. The rights will come to those in power first, and then the women, and then the minority, through years, if not centuries of change.

Yes... Over 1000 years for modern democracy.

From William I (the conqueror). to King John's Magna Carta, to the Protestant Reformation, to the English Civil War, to the abolition of the divine right of sovereigns, to the rise of sovereign Parliaments, to the Scottish Enlightenment, to the American Revolution, to constitutional monarchies, to the American Civil War, through two world wars, through the defeat of totalitarianism (in western Europe then largely through eastern Europe)...

To name some of those baptisms.

You've been reading my treatise on The Divine Right of Elected Government - as the next step in upward mobility for social and civil rights equally for all.

And NO - government of any kind does not have any Divine Right to do as it wills... and of course, the vast inroads made into freedom under the banner of feminist freedom will take a long time t heal and then turn back onto the upward path for all... oh, how governments flocked to that banner, seeing so clearly that it was the most favourable avenue to dominate and control society by bashing men into the ground first.

Pissy little people/men are always like that.

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Frank

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Re: Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks
Reply #53 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 11:23am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 11:05am:

Frank wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 11:00am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:33am:

tickleandrose wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:25am:

Gordon wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:17am:

Democracy and modernity was handed to them with a cherry on top but they didn't want it.

Afghanistan is Taliban and Taliban is Afghanistan.

Gordon, aside, from select regions, and the capital, there was never any democracy or modernity for the general population of Afghanistan.

You cant give democracy via a handful of military bases, guns and humvees. It just wont happen.

Those living in established democracies forget that democracy was not given by the gods; it evolved from internal socio-political baptisms of fire.

And very importantly, secular democracy has no presence in Islam. People are not created equal by Allah. Ideas matter and the idea of secular democracy is alien, even hostile, to the ideas of Islam. It is always an imposed facade, corrupted and deformed where it is adopted by Muslim countries.
What did the Afghans do after the Russians left? They had themselves a vicious civil war with the Taliban victorious. Thank you, Pakistan.

People are not created equal... Children work that out before they're 10.

Orthodox Christianity is fundamentally opposed to secular democracy by definition.

And so it is no accident that democracy really exists only in protestant countries, Britain and its settler countries and north west Europe. Totally not accidentally, these are the only countries that never had totalitarian communist or fascist regimes.

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UnSubRocky Gold Member Offline Crocodile Hunter: Origins Posts: 25457 Rockhampton Gender:	Re: Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks Reply #54 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 2:09pm Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 8:09am: Australia got sucked into it by the Yanks. Australia has to build up good reliability in the military scene if we are to see future help from our allies in any conflict we face.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks
Reply #55 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 2:33pm

Frank wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 11:23am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 11:05am:

Frank wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 11:00am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:33am:

tickleandrose wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:25am:

Gordon wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:17am:

Democracy and modernity was handed to them with a cherry on top but they didn't want it.

Afghanistan is Taliban and Taliban is Afghanistan.

Gordon, aside, from select regions, and the capital, there was never any democracy or modernity for the general population of Afghanistan.

You cant give democracy via a handful of military bases, guns and humvees. It just wont happen.

Those living in established democracies forget that democracy was not given by the gods; it evolved from internal socio-political baptisms of fire.

And very importantly, secular democracy has no presence in Islam. People are not created equal by Allah. Ideas matter and the idea of secular democracy is alien, even hostile, to the ideas of Islam. It is always an imposed facade, corrupted and deformed where it is adopted by Muslim countries.
What did the Afghans do after the Russians left? They had themselves a vicious civil war with the Taliban victorious. Thank you, Pakistan.

People are not created equal... Children work that out before they're 10.

Orthodox Christianity is fundamentally opposed to secular democracy by definition.

And so it is no accident that democracy really exists only in protestant countries, Britain and its settler countries and north west Europe. Totally not accidentally, these are the only countries that never had totalitarian communist or fascist regimes.

Depends on who you ask, I guess. There was Oliver Cromwell, an authoritarian and dictator...

Although he did use his brand of puritanical Christianity to justify his rule of Britain and Ireland. Hitler pulled a similar trick on Pius XII regarding his dictatorship of Germany (being a mash of northern Protestantism and southern Catholicism) and Jewish persecution.

Trotsky viewed Cromwell as a class revolutionary.

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Frank

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Re: Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks
Reply #56 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 2:40pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 2:33pm:

Frank wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 11:23am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 11:05am:

Frank wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 11:00am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:33am:

tickleandrose wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:25am:

Gordon wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 9:17am:

Democracy and modernity was handed to them with a cherry on top but they didn't want it.

Afghanistan is Taliban and Taliban is Afghanistan.

Gordon, aside, from select regions, and the capital, there was never any democracy or modernity for the general population of Afghanistan.

You cant give democracy via a handful of military bases, guns and humvees. It just wont happen.

Those living in established democracies forget that democracy was not given by the gods; it evolved from internal socio-political baptisms of fire.

And very importantly, secular democracy has no presence in Islam. People are not created equal by Allah. Ideas matter and the idea of secular democracy is alien, even hostile, to the ideas of Islam. It is always an imposed facade, corrupted and deformed where it is adopted by Muslim countries.
What did the Afghans do after the Russians left? They had themselves a vicious civil war with the Taliban victorious. Thank you, Pakistan.

People are not created equal... Children work that out before they're 10.

Orthodox Christianity is fundamentally opposed to secular democracy by definition.

And so it is no accident that democracy really exists only in protestant countries, Britain and its settler countries and north west Europe. Totally not accidentally, these are the only countries that never had totalitarian communist or fascist regimes.

Depends on who you ask, I guess. There was Oliver Cromwell, an authoritarian and dictator...

Although he did use his brand of puritanical Christianity to justify his rule of Britain and Ireland. Hitler pulled a similar trick on Pius XII regarding his dictatorship of Germany (being a mash of northern Protestantism and southern Catholicism) and Jewish persecution.

Trotsky viewed Cromwell as a class revolutionary.

Yeah, you could ask anyone completely irrelevant and they would give you completely irelevant answers, like what Leon thought of Oliver. Or you could ask any other dictator in the various People's Democratic Republics about any number of other 17th or 18th century figures. Or you could ask a 10 year old child.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 120796 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks Reply #57 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 2:45pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 2:09pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2021 at 8:09am: Australia got sucked into it by the Yanks. Australia has to build up good reliability in the military scene if we are to see future help from our allies in any conflict we face. I hope so.
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chimera

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Re: Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks
Reply #58 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 3:31pm

Hitler's concentration camps were influenced by British camps for Boers in S Africa, where US slavery inspired apartheit of Dutch democracy like racist rule in Indonesia. Or British massacre at Amritsar of a democracy meeting. And no democracy for Hong Kong please, we're British.

James Cook 1770: Please Sir, may I have more water?
Jagamuury : Wara wai!
James : Water, boy, now.
Jagamuury : Gedpharg.
James: click, flash, boom.

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« Last Edit: Aug 16^th, 2021 at 3:36pm by chimera »

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Frank

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Re: Afghanistan ... Kabul may fall in weeks
Reply #59 - Aug 16^th, 2021 at 3:39pm

The reason to go in was sound - to kill Bin Laden and Al Qaida.

Staying on for nation building was a naive mistake, although well-intentioned.

Staying on for 20 years when the futility of nation building became obvious was an unforgivable blunder by the top brass of the US. At that point limited Australian - and other non-American - involvement was maintained for US alliance cultivation purposes, not for the sake of Afghans.

Now the Afghans can have another bloody and brutal jihad against each other, thee Taliban supported by Pakistan and the America and West left with its diplomatic, military, cultural, moral credibility in the toilet. If America cannot impose its will on a load of goatherds in sandals then it has no chance with the Chinese commies in Taiwan.

The Sea of "Western and American power and credibility
"Was once, too, at the full, and round earth’s shore
Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled.
But now I only hear
Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,
Retreating"

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