Australian Politics Forum - Israel did not win the war on Gaza

chimera

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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #405 - Apr 17^th, 2025 at 12:46pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 20^th, 2024 at 11:14am:

the Chinese established sovereignty over Tibet during the Qing dynasty (whether by force or otherwise), a sovereignty which has never been contradicted by the UN.

.. it's about law in the (post WW2) age of international law;

Tibet was outside Qing rule by 1900. UN didn't have a lot to say then..China's empire was a bit illegal when it invaded Tibet after WW2, eh?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #406 - Apr 19^th, 2025 at 2:29pm

chimera wrote on Apr 17^th, 2025 at 12:46pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Oct 20^th, 2024 at 11:14am:

the Chinese established sovereignty over Tibet during the Qing dynasty (whether by force or otherwise), a sovereignty which has never been contradicted by the UN.

.. it's about law in the (post WW2) age of international law;

Tibet was outside Qing rule by 1900. UN didn't have a lot to say then..China's empire was a bit illegal when it invaded Tibet after WW2, eh?

By 1900 the Qing empire was collapsing; for the next 45 years when there was no UN, government in China was unstable:

(google)

(in 1913) the newly formed ROC was unable to assert any real authority in Tibet. The 13th Dalai Lama declared that Tibet's relationship with China ended with the fall of the Qing dynasty and proclaimed independence, although this was not formally recognized by other countries.[15][16] Tibet and Outer Mongolia signed a disputed treaty proclaiming mutual recognition of their independence from China.[17]

After the 13th Dalai Lama's death in 1933, a condolence mission sent to Lhasa by the Kuomintang-ruled Nationalist government to start negotiations about Tibet's status was allowed to open an office and remain there, although no agreement was reached.

In 1945–1949, the Nationalist government of the Republic of China lost the renewed Chinese Civil War against the Chinese Communist Party. In Tibet, the era of de facto independence ended after Tibet was annexed by the newly formed People's Republic of China in 1950–1951.

Ie, the commies, determined to reverse the 'century of China's humiliation', set about re-establishing sovereignty over its former Qing territory.

And the UN, the arbiter of "legality" in international affairs, did not intervene.

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« Last Edit: Apr 19^th, 2025 at 2:35pm by thegreatdivide »

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Somers Trail

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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #407 - Apr 21^st, 2025 at 12:48am

Note that the "displace and forcibly relocate" was the Plan B that happened after Plan A, "let's split this chunk of terrain up relatively equally- care to talk details?", was rejected by one side in preference for an immediate, violent, and sustained response- no extended talks, no serious attempt to work things out in either a territory split or power-sharing agreement, just straight to war.

The aggressors then lost. They do not get to proclaim Might Makes Right and then try for takesie backsies when the enemy proves to have more Might.

I will say that refusing to accept the 1947 partition plan was an incredibly stupid thing for the Arabs to do. Even if they thought it was unfair, it was the best deal they were ever going to get.

From what I've seen, the Palestinian national cause is almost entirely a chain of incredibly stupid decisions, with only one notable exception being the Oslo Accords. Not accepting the 1947 partition plan was just one, though the most notable, of them.

The least worst option Palestine has right now is to seek peace with Israel and negotiate borders that allow them to keep Gaza and most of the West Bank excluding Jerusalem. The bugger up in 1947 was ignoring the partition plan entirely. The bugger up between 1948-1967 was ignoring reality and insisting on a 'return' to the 1947 borders (which the Arabs had rejected). And the current bugger up is insisting on a 'return' to the 1967 borders.

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Somers Trail

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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #408 - Apr 21^st, 2025 at 2:45am

Let's not leave out that "Nakba" originally referred to the military "catastrophe" (from the Arab POV). The reinterpretation to focus on the humanitarian side only occurred later - I assume after 1973 proved to the Arab states that a military victory over Israel was wishful thinking at best.

For the Arabs who we now refer to the Palestinians, it probably referred to both from the get-go (they experienced both the military and non-military meanings of the word, after all), but in the West, I'm correct. It was introduced into the Anglosphere and Francosphere as a word referring to a humanitarian disaster, which is a somewhat... dishonest way of presenting a term coined to describe a military defeat.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #409 - Apr 21^st, 2025 at 11:03am

Somers Trail wrote on Apr 21^st, 2025 at 12:48am:

Note that the "displace and forcibly relocate" was the Plan B that happened after Plan A, "let's split this chunk of terrain up relatively equally- care to talk details?", was rejected by one side in preference for an immediate, violent, and sustained response- no extended talks, no serious attempt to work things out in either a territory split or power-sharing agreement, just straight to war.

The aggressors then lost. They do not get to proclaim Might Makes Right and then try for takesie backsies when the enemy proves to have more Might.

I will say that refusing to accept the 1947 partition plan was an incredibly stupid thing for the Arabs to do. Even if they thought it was unfair, it was the best deal they were ever going to get.

From what I've seen, the Palestinian national cause is almost entirely a chain of incredibly stupid decisions, with only one notable exception being the Oslo Accords. Not accepting the 1947 partition plan was just one, though the most notable, of them.

The least worst option Palestine has right now is to seek peace with Israel and negotiate borders that allow them to keep Gaza and most of the West Bank excluding Jerusalem. The bugger up in 1947 was ignoring the partition plan entirely. The bugger up between 1948-1967 was ignoring reality and insisting on a 'return' to the 1947 borders (which the Arabs had rejected). And the current bugger up is insisting on a 'return' to the 1967 borders.

Good posts.

But I doubt you would see the UN's failure to enforce its own resolution - UN res 181 , as being the cause of the subsequent endless war in the (former) Palestine Mandate.

Which it surely is.

Since 1946, only the UN can create states; the 1946 UN Charter was supposed to end the ancient 'might is right' practice of determining territorial acquistion.

And the UNSC should have been equipped with the machinery to enforce the new regime, ie, the so-called 'international rules-based system', because any system of rules/law needs the capacity to defend itself against the rule breakers (of which their will always be some).

It's ironic the UN's very first vote which enabled the creation of a new state (Israel) led to a (thus far) endless war......

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Somers Trail Junior Member Offline Posts: 50	Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza Reply #410 - Apr 21^st, 2025 at 8:12pm Middle East related: The PRC would have vetoed any UN resolution to remove Saddam, given the weapons trade they enjoyed with him, but this is left out by activists in order to make the USA look worse.
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Grappler Truth Teller

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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #411 - Apr 21^st, 2025 at 9:57pm

There are no winners... the best Israel can do is have a civilised government in place in Gaza - their only other options are to trash it entirely and leave it with nothing, driving the Gazans out - occupy it forever - or have it controlled by an international peacekpping force.

None of those will do any good, none will stop the killing.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #412 - Apr 23^rd, 2025 at 11:36am

Somers Trail wrote on Apr 21^st, 2025 at 8:12pm:

Middle East related:

The PRC would have vetoed any UN resolution to remove Saddam, given the weapons trade they enjoyed with him, but this is left out by activists in order to make the USA look worse.

Nice diversion from the cause of the Palestine war.....the UN already said the Bush-Blair-Howard war, ie the Iraq war, was illegal. And the massive protests all around the world agreed with the UN.

Re the UNSC veto; many of the smaller states present at the founding of the UN Charter in 1946 resisted the demand by each of the 5 Great Powers (the victors in WW2) for access to a veto power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_veto_power

Harry S. Truman, who became President of the United States in April 1945, wrote: "All our experts, civil and military, favored it, and without such a veto no arrangement would have passed the Senate."[15]

A central goal of the United Nations at its founding was to make sure the five Great Powers would continue working with the UN, in order to avoid the lack of universality that had diminished the political strength of the League of Nations.

[4] At San Francisco, the Big Five made it clear that there would be no United Nations if they were not given the veto. Francis O. Wilcox, an adviser to the US delegation, described the dramatic negotiations: "At San Francisco, the issue was made crystal clear by the leaders of the Big Five: it was either the Charter with the veto or no Charter at all. Senator Connally [from the US delegation] dramatically tore up a copy of the Charter during one of his speeches and reminded the small states that they would be guilty of that same if they opposed the unanimity principle. 'You may, if you wish,' he said, 'go home from this Conference and say that you have defeated the veto. But what will be your answer when you are asked: "Where is the Charter"?'"[8]

See the problem? The so-called "unanimity principle" itself resulted in a UNSC speaking with a fractured voice.

Smaller states were hoping the UN would be able to protect them from predation by larger states in a new international rules based order enforced by an UNSC acting with one voice determined by a majority vote of the 5 permanent SC members

But the veto destroyed that outcome, because leaders of the great powers weren't ready to create an international rules based order under which they also would be subservient, instead preferring to defend their own national interest.

Hence no effective international rules-based order.

And no peace in UN-partitioned Palestine.

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« Last Edit: Apr 23^rd, 2025 at 11:53am by thegreatdivide »

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Somers Trail

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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #413 - Apr 23^rd, 2025 at 11:47am

Very few states in the UN GA are democracies. I will listen to their counsel about "interfering in internal affairs" as much as one should believe in Piltdown Man.

The UN advocating leaving Saddam and such et al in place is the Global South colluding to protect each other.

And i have no time for FW pacifism (The Belgrano wasn't legally a war crime, for a start).

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Frank

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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #414 - Apr 23^rd, 2025 at 12:17pm

GAZA — In a desperate attempt to return to family and friends they haven't seen in over a year and a half, American hostages being held by Hamas reportedly disguised themselves as MS-13 gang members so Democrats would fight to bring them home to the U.S.

After being held captive since late 2023 with little sign of their elected officials being motivated to bring them home, sources said the Americans still in the custody of Hamas had devised a clever plan to cover themselves in MS-13 tattoos so congressional Democrats would advocate for them.

"Maybe this will make us less invisible," one American hostage said in a message smuggled out from his secret location. "We've been away from our families and friends for over a year and a half, and we just really want to be set free. We heard Democrats are actually flying to El Salvador to try to bring that MS-13 gang member back to America, so we figured this was worth a shot."

Upon hearing reports that people matching the description of MS-13 gang members were being held prisoner in Gaza, congressional Democrats sprang into action. "Bring them home now!" said an impassioned Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland. "If they're members of MS-13, they belong here. I am demanding that they be brought to the United States immediately so they can be with the rest of their gang."

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #415 - Apr 23^rd, 2025 at 12:40pm

Somers Trail wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2025 at 11:47am:

Very few states in the UN GA are democracies. I will listen to their counsel about "interfering in internal affairs" as much as one should believe in Piltdown Man.

But millions of people in dozens of cities around the world including in democracies 'counselled' Bush not to go to war against Saddam.

As for internal affairs, they should be debated in the UNGA, not settled by forced 'regime change' by a UNSC member. Saddam was no threat to the US who were looking for a scapegoat for 9/11; Bin Laden of course hated the US for maintaining military bases in Muslim lands.

Quote:

The UN advocating leaving Saddam and such et al in place is the Global South colluding to protect each other.

No, the UN determines whether a war is 'legal'; and, eg Canada isn't 'Global South':

google

While Canada had previously participated in military action against Iraq in the Gulf War of 1991, it refused to declare war against Iraq without United Nations Security Council (UNSC) approval.

Quote:

And i have no time for FW pacifism (The Belgrano wasn't legally a war crime, for a start).

(Poor example; see below).

And you apparently have no time for the UN, its role in the Palestine war, and the reasons for its failure "to save mankind from the scourge of war" (UN Charter).

Hence no interest shown by you re the reasons for the existance of the crippling UNSC veto.

So you are satisfied with the revenge-motivated genocidal actions of the extreme RW Israeli government, in a war which should never have begun in 1947, avoiding the subsequent endless cycle of revenge.

Even many Israelis themselves hate their own government for the disrepute the current genocide (currently 17000 kids) is bringing to Israel all around the world.
(google)

Israel kills a child in Gaza every 45 minutes.

That is an average of 30 children killed every day over the past 535 days.

Since October 7, 2023, Israel has killed at least 17,400 children, including 15,600 who have been identified. Many more remain buried under the rubble, most presumed dead

A war crime.

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« Last Edit: Apr 23^rd, 2025 at 12:48pm by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #416 - Apr 23^rd, 2025 at 12:58pm

Frank wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2025 at 12:17pm:

GAZA — In a desperate attempt to return to family and friends they haven't seen in over a year and a half, American hostages being held by Hamas reportedly disguised themselves as MS-13 gang members so Democrats would fight to bring them home to the U.S.

Priceless: humor is the best medicine, desperately needed in all this horror....

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Somers Trail Junior Member Offline Posts: 50	Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza Reply #417 - Apr 23^rd, 2025 at 4:25pm Every single death in Gaza is ultimately the responsibility of Hamas (and the PLO) just as every death in Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima and such was ultimately the responsibility of Hitler and Hirohito.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #418 - Apr 24^th, 2025 at 2:05pm

Somers Trail wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2025 at 4:25pm:

Every single death in Gaza is ultimately the responsibility of Hamas (and the PLO) just as every death in Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima and such was ultimately the responsibility of Hitler and Hirohito.

You are not ready to learn, which is why you can't address the issues I raised re the UN and its failed attempt to introduce an international rules based system (to which most world leaders claim they are signed up).

Carry on blaming other nations and peoples for the endless wars and entrenched poverty ruining our world.

[WW2 was merely a continuation of WW1, in which Germany was asserting its right (as she saw it) to assert its place in the world, vis a vis the old British, Russian, and Austrian Empires. Ditto for Japan with its own imperialist desires leading up to WW2. And the Cold War was based a conflict between Capitalism and Communism; both systems have weaknesses, ask Trump..... ]

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« Last Edit: Apr 24^th, 2025 at 2:14pm by thegreatdivide »

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Gnads

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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #419 - Apr 24^th, 2025 at 5:19pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 24^th, 2025 at 2:05pm:

Somers Trail wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2025 at 4:25pm:

Every single death in Gaza is ultimately the responsibility of Hamas (and the PLO) just as every death in Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima and such was ultimately the responsibility of Hitler and Hirohito.

You are not ready to learn, which is why you can't address the issues I raised re the UN and its failed attempt to introduce an international rules based system (to which most world leaders claim they are signed up).

Carry on blaming other nations and peoples for the endless wars and entrenched poverty ruining our world.

[WW2 was merely a continuation of WW1, in which Germany was asserting its right (as she saw it) to assert its place in the world, vis a vis the old British, Russian, and Austrian Empires. Ditto for Japan with its own imperialist desires leading up to WW2. And the Cold War was based a conflict between Capitalism and Communism; both systems have weaknesses, ask Trump..... ]

Fancy you telling someone they are not willing to learn? Grin

Hamas doesn't want peace, the people of GAZA of whom the majority support Hamas don't want peace.

They want the Israelis/Jews gone - from the River to the Sea.

They are brainwashed fanatics - they have done the same to all their children.

Their aims in life aren't to get a good education & or a job - their aims are to grow up, blow up or kill as many Jews as they can and become martyrs for the cause.

Something you choose to ignore whilst you bleat on about the stinking UN & their corrupt branches.

UNRWA is the perfect example. It's teachers in Gaza are connected to HAMAS or are HAMAS members though UNRWA deny it. They are there to indoctrinate their children to hate and push anti-Jewish & Israel sentiment. UNRWA schools were used by Hamas to hide weapons and to fire rockets from. Many UNRWA teachers were seen to celebrate & support on social media the Hamas attack on Oct 7th - one praising her son who was one of the Hamas attackers who killed Israeli citizens.

You excuse & justify this entrenched hatred by so called Palestinian people who will never accept any solution accept the annihilation of the State of Israel and it's Jewish citizens.

No doubt they would probably kill the Israeli Muslim citizens like they would apostates.

Speaking of deplorable? You make me bilious.

https://unwatch.org/fact-checking-unrwa-claims-about-teachers-and-education/

https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting/house/116769/witnesses/HMTG-118-FA17-Wstate...

https://www.timesofisrael.com/top-administrators-at-unrwa-schools-were-hamas-fig...

Quote:

Western Countries Fund UNRWA’s $1.6 Billion Budget

These teachers of hate are largely funded by Western countries who contribute the lion’s share of UNRWA’s $1.6 billion-dollar budget.

Amounts pledged for 2022 included $344 million from the United States, $122 million from Germany, $107 million from the European Commission, $61 million from Sweden, $17 million from the UK, $24 million from Switzerland, $32 million from Norway, $28 million from France, $24 million from Canada, and $15 million from the Netherlands.

The Albanese Govt gave $20 million direct to UNRWA. Roll Eyes

Western Govts & the UN funding and enabling generational hatred and the promotion of terrorism to children in Gaza, being taught by Hamas members in UNRWA schools.

And you waffle on about the 1947 partition plan which the Arabs rejected causing Israel to be having to defend itself from all sides ever since. Roll Eyes

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