Australian Politics Forum - The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia

Frank

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #210 - Oct 21^st, 2022 at 9:12am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 8:17am:

Frank wrote on Oct 20^th, 2022 at 5:59pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 19^th, 2022 at 3:47pm:

The Old Testament instructs believers to conduct atrocities,

No, it doesn't.
It records history.

Not only are they commands from God, the OT also quite clearly describes massacres of innocents as expressions of devotion and faith.

And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the Lord for destruction. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall live, because she ohid the messengers whom we sent.
Joshua 6:17

But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction
Deuteronomy 20:16–17

Moreover, the Israelites are criticized as disobedient when they didn't carry out genocide (Psalm 106:34–42)

History. Not instructions for present conduct.

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 109467 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #211 - Oct 21^st, 2022 at 9:28am Frank wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 9:12am: History. Not instructions for present conduct. Wasn't it a bit violent? Let's redact it.
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Yadda

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #212 - Oct 21^st, 2022 at 9:44am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 8:17am:

Moreover, the Israelites are criticized as disobedient when they didn't carry out genocide (Psalm 106:34–42)

"......criticized as disobedient when they didn't carry out genocide"

What you assert, is ABSOLUTELY incorrect gandalf.

Dathan and Abiram [and their families] were destroyed >> DIRECTLY by the God of Israel, << in the wilderness, AND, not because they refused or complained about killing anyone.

>>> Dathan and Abiram were destroyed because they sought to provoke a rebellion against Moses and Aaron. <<<

And the bible records, that Dathan and Abiram [and their families] were destroyed DIRECTLY by the God of Israel.

Read this story, this chronicle, directly in the bible.

Numbers 16......

"Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men:.....
.....And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?"

"And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.
But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD."

.

Hey gandalf.......

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #213 - Oct 21^st, 2022 at 10:16am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 8:17am:

Not only are they commands from God, the OT also quite clearly describes massacres of innocents as expressions of devotion and faith.

And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the Lord for destruction. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall live, because she ohid the messengers whom we sent.
Joshua 6:17

But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction
Deuteronomy 20:16–17

gandalf,

The God of Israel brought harsh punishment ?

YES? ABSOLUTELY.

But the judgement of the God of Israel is/was justified.

Because the peoples of all those nations had for many years 'polluted the land' with the blood of innocent persons, including children.

And the complete wickedness of the people of those nations, was the reason why, the God of Israel, wanted everything belonging to those people, those murderers, destroyed.

This fact, is stated and explained in the bible.

If you will but read it.

All of the JUDGEMENTS, of God of Israel, are done in righteousness.

And the of God of Israel is not a monster. ......as one poster on this forum recently 'presumed'.

Numbers 35:30
Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.
31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.
32 And ye shall take no satisfaction for him that is fled to the city of his refuge, that he should come again to dwell in the land, until the death of the priest.
33 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.
34 Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit, wherein I dwell: for I the LORD dwell among the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 9:3
Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.

Deuteronomy 12:28
Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the LORD thy God.
29 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

.

"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night."

Psalms 111:6
He hath shewed his people the power of his works, that he may give them the heritage of the heathen.
7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Proverbs 28:5
Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #214 - Oct 21^st, 2022 at 10:47am

Frank wrote on Oct 20^th, 2022 at 5:59pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 19^th, 2022 at 3:47pm:

The Old Testament instructs believers to conduct atrocities,

No, it doesn't.
It records history.

Yes, and how Yahweh - eternal God of the Jews - authorized the genocide of '7 nations mightier than thou' (Israel), during the conquest of 'The Promised Land', c. 1300 -1100 BC.

So ...has Yahweh changed his spots?

If so, I suppose the amputations and crucifixions ordered by Allah as punishment for infidels and criminals, according to the Islamic Prophet in the 7th century AD, might also be considered as subject to change....

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freediver

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #215 - Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:30pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 8:17am:

Frank wrote on Oct 20^th, 2022 at 5:59pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 19^th, 2022 at 3:47pm:

The Old Testament instructs believers to conduct atrocities,

No, it doesn't.
It records history.

Not only are they commands from God, the OT also quite clearly describes massacres of innocents as expressions of devotion and faith.

And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the Lord for destruction. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall live, because she ohid the messengers whom we sent.
Joshua 6:17

But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction
Deuteronomy 20:16–17

Moreover, the Israelites are criticized as disobedient when they didn't carry out genocide (Psalm 106:34–42)

Gandalf, can you cite any religious text that promotes ongoing violence more than the Quran?

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freediver

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #216 - Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:34pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 1:48pm:

who is the nail in your analogy FD? Who is the apprentice? I'll give you a hint - its got something to do with hate speech and incitement to violence, and your contradictory position on it. A position I have gone to great pains to spell out to you.

And before you say it - yes it is an analogy.

Here's how I interpret the analogy:

Should the apprentice who erred in making the nail be held liable for the loss of the kingdom? = should the necessary right of free speech be held liable for bad things that might happen because of it - like violence?

Just a simple confirmation that this is the analogy you meant would be a great start - or maybe I am getting something wrong? Unfortunately though, the problem with using this analogy as your answer to my question - is that it doesn't actually answer my question - as I have already pointed out in great detail - ad-infinitum.

It's not an analogy Gandalf. It is a proverb. I have already explained that the nail is an analogy for a nail. It would be a fool's errand to try to turn each item in the proverb into an analogy for something. So stop trying.

Quote:

For want of a nail, the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost.
For want of a horse, the king was lost.
For want of a king, the battle was lost.
For want of a battle, the kingdom was lost,
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

Should the apprentice who erred in making the nail be held liable for the loss of the kingdom?

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Bobby.

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #217 - Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:39pm

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:30pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 8:17am:

Frank wrote on Oct 20^th, 2022 at 5:59pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 19^th, 2022 at 3:47pm:

The Old Testament instructs believers to conduct atrocities,

No, it doesn't.
It records history.

Not only are they commands from God, the OT also quite clearly describes massacres of innocents as expressions of devotion and faith.

And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the Lord for destruction. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall live, because she ohid the messengers whom we sent.
Joshua 6:17

But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction
Deuteronomy 20:16–17

Moreover, the Israelites are criticized as disobedient when they didn't carry out genocide (Psalm 106:34–42)

Gandalf, can you cite any religious text that promotes ongoing violence more than the Quran?

Hi FD,
would you agree that both the Bible and the Koran need some serious redaction?
If so would the Christians be any more compliant than the Muslims?

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59788 Here Gender:	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #218 - Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:48pm Brian Ross wrote on Mar 17^th, 2021 at 3:17pm: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Just ignore the four or five members who seem to have contracted an extreme case of every phobia imaginable ?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49880 At my desk.	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #219 - Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:48pm I don't think either of them would pay you any attention Bobby. But feel free to buy your own and go to town with a nikko.
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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 109467 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #220 - Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:50pm freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:48pm: I don't think either of them would pay you any attention Bobby. But feel free to buy your own and go to town with a nikko. So they are both violent religions that refuse to change their ways?
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Dnarever

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #221 - Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:51pm

Bobby. wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:39pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:30pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21^st, 2022 at 8:17am:

Frank wrote on Oct 20^th, 2022 at 5:59pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 19^th, 2022 at 3:47pm:

The Old Testament instructs believers to conduct atrocities,

No, it doesn't.
It records history.

Not only are they commands from God, the OT also quite clearly describes massacres of innocents as expressions of devotion and faith.

And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the Lord for destruction. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall live, because she ohid the messengers whom we sent.
Joshua 6:17

But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction
Deuteronomy 20:16–17

Moreover, the Israelites are criticized as disobedient when they didn't carry out genocide (Psalm 106:34–42)

Gandalf, can you cite any religious text that promotes ongoing violence more than the Quran?

Hi FD,
would you agree that both the Bible and the Koran need some serious redaction?
If so would the Christians be any more compliant than the Muslims?

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/GCwAAOSwQMxdjxqv/s-l500.jpg

Next you will want to go back to the days when Christian priests were performing abortions.

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freediver

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #222 - Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:52pm

Bobby. wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:50pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:48pm:

I don't think either of them would pay you any attention Bobby.
But feel free to buy your own and go to town with a nikko.

So they are both violent religions that refuse to change their ways?

You realise you don't even make sense, right?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Bobby.

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #223 - Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:55pm

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:52pm:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:50pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:48pm:

I don't think either of them would pay you any attention Bobby.
But feel free to buy your own and go to town with a nikko.

So they are both violent religions that refuse to change their ways?

You realise you don't even make sense, right?

I make perfect sense.
Both Christianity and Islam have religions based on books full of extreme violence.
Is it time they came to terms with that and redacted their books?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49880 At my desk.	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #224 - Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 2:53pm Quote: Both Christianity and Islam have religions They both are religions Bobby. Not people. You might as well be cursing at windmills.
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