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Jest

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Re: scab
Reply #45 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 11:13am

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 11:02am:

Let me just get this right:-

According to the Book of Freediver, Union members stop people from getting jobs by having jobs; but when a management retrenches workers of any kind and then replaces them with others who are specifically not Union members and are signing on for lower pay and conditions for the same jobs - those SCABS are not stopping people from getting jobs?

Seems to me you are distorting the idea of the 'jobs market' by trying to view it as a Union/Scab dichotomy; and are mistaking brute force by management for industrial relations and fair negotiation.

Why is that? Have you been reading too much of the Preachings of Luong Yi?*

Seriously, freed - you used to be reasonably rational, but now you are taking on a rather sinister mental twist about your realities.

.. * for the uninitiated; Luong Yi is my version of Longie = the user LongWeekend59, who was rabidly right radical, knows it all (ask him), and an absolute trout in his discussions with others, using insult and put-down rather than facts. For this, I compared him to a North Korean or CCP General, and created the name Yuong Li for him, even bringing to the table on the subject of 'negotiation' the issue of first needing to settle the shape of the table.... Longie espouses the 'tool' of being able to sack a negotiating worker as a useful tool in negotiation - I responded that only a tool in negotiation would use such a tool....

Laughter - the best medicine for twits...... of course the title General Luong Yi went right over his hugely intelligent head... He Who Knows It All....

Spot on Grap.

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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: scab
Reply #46 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 11:13am

Jest wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 9:47am:

So are you saying that when the union is on strike it is not in conflict with the employer and/or that you understand the concept of scab full well because you use it all the time when it suites you? Both states are true of course.

.. with the proviso that the employer is also in conflict with the union/employees ... this is, after all - a two way street, like having sex after a night out drinking together and indeed responsibility for engaging in sex at all which somehow - in this 21st Century, remains the absolute province of the man when it suits ONLY for blaming purposes ... what part of YES do they not understand? ..... Cool

Similarly, INDUSTRIAL Disputes are two way - not one - and the issues are mostly that it is the management wanting to change an agreement that brings it all about, such as the wharf thing at this moment, which I feel may have 'triggered' freediver on this series of issues about Unions.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53050 At my desk.	Re: scab Reply #47 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 11:14am I don't think that. Again, I apologise for your persistent state of confusion.
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freediver

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Re: scab
Reply #48 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 8:49am

Jest wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 11:10am:

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 10:53am:

I see I was not clear enough. When I called you a liar, I expected you would understand that I am saying you are wrong. I apologise for your ongoing confusion.

Baby steps, baby steps. I cant say your fast to catch on but your getting there. Now, the next step in rational human debate is to tell us why you think that when unions go on strike they're not in conflict with their employer and/or why you say Im wrong that you use the concept iof scab when it suites you. For example you might never think or speak of people who betray their country as "traitors". Is that the reason you say Im wrong. Go ahead you can do this.

I notice you haven't denied being a liar yet. So what is the point of lying if you know you cannot get away with it?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: scab
Reply #49 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 9:30am

You got your definition - you got your argument rebutted - why is this running at four pages+.

Unions of themselves do not cause unemployment or create income inequality, and you will not, as long as Australia draws breath, have a laissez faire jobs market again, since it demonstrably does not work and is nothing but a concept of tyranny and despotism of the employer over employee, something anathema in the 'civilised' West now for many decades and still in flux.... and you can keep your WOP master/servant mentality to yourself.

Beware the full response of the common folk - it generally leads to guillotines and the like ...

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« Last Edit: Oct 17^th, 2020 at 9:38am by Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53050 At my desk.	Re: scab Reply #50 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 10:23am Quote: Beware the full response of the common folk - it generally leads to guillotines and the like ... Are the unions going to help them deliver this response?
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Gnads

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Re: scab
Reply #51 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 4:34pm

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 11:09am:

Quote:

According to the Book of Freediver, Union members stop people from getting jobs by having jobs

No.

To the extent they manage to increase wages and increase the cost of providing jobs through collusion, they cause unemployment. There are fewer jobs in total in the industry. It's not a zero sum game, they create a negative sum game. They benefit at everyone else's expense.

Bullshyte or should I say liar.

And rationalization ... who makes those decisions and takes away jobs??

Hypocrite.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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freediver

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Re: scab
Reply #52 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 5:31pm

Gnads wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 4:34pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 11:09am:

Quote:

According to the Book of Freediver, Union members stop people from getting jobs by having jobs

No.

To the extent they manage to increase wages and increase the cost of providing jobs through collusion, they cause unemployment. There are fewer jobs in total in the industry. It's not a zero sum game, they create a negative sum game. They benefit at everyone else's expense.

Bullshyte or should I say liar.

And rationalization ... who makes those decisions and takes away jobs??

Hypocrite.

It's an inevitable consequence Gnads. All you have to do is think about it. I dare you.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Dnarever

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Re: scab
Reply #53 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 6:29pm

freediver wrote on Oct 13^th, 2020 at 6:30pm:

Aussie wrote on Oct 13^th, 2020 at 5:26pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 13^th, 2020 at 4:52pm:

Our resident unionist parrots (white knight, Gnads, Ye Grappler) have been throwing around this term, which does not sound very nice to me. Gnads likes to call them bludging scabs. But they all shy away of explaining what they mean with this term. So now is their chance to explain.

Why do you call your fellow Australians who are down on their luck at a given time, but who are willing and able to work and prepared to do a job that others consider beneath them in some way, a scab?

Because they are undermining what has been long fought for. Fair pay for job done, not exploitation of those 'down on their luck' who, if employed, would render those they replaced on the basis of prostitution, unemployed. And the eternal downward spiral is set in place.

China, here we come. No protection for workers.

So the unions call them scabs and want to stop them getting a job for their own good?

Can you explain why you think it is fair to deny one person a job they want to do so that another can get paid more, and belittle and demean them in the process?

Quote:

So the unions call them scabs and want to stop them getting a job for their own good?

Most people called a scab in the workplace are likely unknown to the union. It is their fellow workers calling out people bludging on them and undermining their position.

The other type of scab are those employed as non union members under the industry pay rates in place of current employees who will be dismissed.

In other words odious grubs undermining pay rates and working conditions for all Australian workers.

Think the waterfront dispute which produces some epic scabs. A workforce trained secretly in Asia to replace an Australian companies workforce after a staged bankruptcy when the employment arm of the company was moved to a new underfunded business with no income.

In this case the big problem was that it was mostly political, meant to be aligned to the election a few months later.

The Politicians involved were very obviously miffed when the company went down 2 or 3 months early upsetting the timing with the election. I.E the Waterfront dispute was meant and planned to be an election stunt scabs political lies and all.

One of Australia's blackest Liberal party events.

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freediver

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Re: scab
Reply #54 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 6:33pm

Quote:

Most people called a scab in the workplace are likely unknown to the union. It is their fellow workers calling out people bludging on them and undermining their position.

By "bludging", do you mean not handing over their money?

Quote:

In other words odious grubs undermining pay rates and working conditions for all Australian workers.

Everyone who has a job is competing against other job seekers. Why do unions take this so personally?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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John Smith

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Re: scab
Reply #55 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 6:36pm

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 11:09am:

To the extent they manage to increase wages and increase the cost of providing jobs through collusion, they cause unemployment. There are fewer jobs in total in the industry. It's not a zero sum game, they create a negative sum game. They benefit at everyone else's expense.

That's funny, I recall hearing the same argument FOR cutting penalty rates. But when rates were cut, it was found that they didn't create a single job ... instead there were more unemployed. Cheesy

Pull your head out of the sand and stop overdosing on cool aid.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53050 At my desk.	Re: scab Reply #56 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 6:39pm Quote: That's funny, I recall hearing the same argument FOR cutting penalty rates. But when rates were cut, it was found that they didn't create a single job ... instead there were more unemployed. Do you think there were more unemployed than there would have been without the rate cuts?
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Dnarever

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Re: scab
Reply #57 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 6:45pm

freediver wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 6:33pm:

Quote:

Most people called a scab in the workplace are likely unknown to the union. It is their fellow workers calling out people bludging on them and undermining their position.

By "bludging", do you mean not handing over their money?

They are typically first in line to accept the wage increases and to benefit from the industry conditions the unions won despite them.

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John Smith

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Re: scab
Reply #58 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 6:45pm

freediver wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 6:39pm:

Quote:

That's funny, I recall hearing the same argument FOR cutting penalty rates. But when rates were cut, it was found that they didn't create a single job ... instead there were more unemployed.

Do you think there were more unemployed than there would have been without the rate cuts?

of course. Less money for your customers means less money for you to pay wages ... it's not rocket science. Even for you.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Dnarever

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Re: scab
Reply #59 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 6:47pm

freediver wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 6:39pm:

Quote:

That's funny, I recall hearing the same argument FOR cutting penalty rates. But when rates were cut, it was found that they didn't create a single job ... instead there were more unemployed.

Do you think there were more unemployed than there would have been without the rate cuts?

Yes definitely the loss of jobs was industry specific. People walked and it hurt the industry.

The data shows that employees voted with their feet.

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