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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53053 At my desk.	Re: scab Reply #30 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:19am Quote: What Unions call "scabs" in the industrial context, is what you, freediver and cods and the girls in her lammington baking club, call "Traitors" in war situations. I am not at war with my employer. I am in a mutually beneficial arrangement. That you consider it war merely reveals how delusional the union mindset is.
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Gnads

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Re: scab
Reply #31 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:23am

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:19am:

Quote:

What Unions call "scabs" in the industrial context, is what you, freediver and cods and the girls in her lammington baking club, call "Traitors" in war situations.

I am not at war with my employer. I am in a mutually beneficial arrangement. That you consider it war merely reveals how delusional the union mindset is.

I know who is delusional.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Gnads

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Re: scab
Reply #32 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:26am

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:15am:

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WHAT people are unemployed because of the actions of Unions?

When you artificially increase wages, you decrease the number of jobs available. Supply and demand. I can't give you their names, if that's what you are asking.

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You yourself said the scabs come in to try to scalp the jobs at a lower rate... so it's not the Unions making people in that situation unemployed, is it?

Yes it is. They would already have a job if not for the unions.

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It's the bosses... al you want to do is replace workers operating on a signed agreement with people who are prepared to accept less without having a valid agreement that abides by the rules.

I want everyone who wants a job in an industry and is able to find an employer willing to give them one under mutually agreed conditions to have the right to do so. There would be more jobs available as a result. There would be higher salaries in non-union industries. The whole country would benefit.

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So throwing people working on a signed agreement out and replacing them with people who accept no agreement or an illegal agreement is NOT rendering people unemployed?

There would be more jobs.

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Where did all your Unionists go then?

Wherever their heart desires. Without unions, there would also be a broader variety of choices.

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Seeings you are going back trolling old posts to further your Union bashing with yet another thread....

How am I "trolling an old post"?

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you would have seen that I explained exactly what constitutes a "scab"

I assume you must have gone back and checked somewhere. Did it not occur to you to copy and paste it for us, so you don't have to go back yet again? Or have the unions trained you in the art of wasting everyone's time?

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Do members of Unions of Employers not pay dues to belong to those collectives?

I have no idea. Do you have a point?

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How many times do you need it explained as to why those who receive the benefits of others sacrifice should make a contribution?

Can you explain how someone who is unemployed because of the unions is receiving a benefit?

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Why is it that you as a rabid conservative capitalist think that there is a free ride to be had?

I think you have to work for a living, not sit around and whinge. You are the one who thinks downing tools is the way to go.

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whatever conditions and wage rates you receive at any job in this country .... has been through the hard fought & won actions of Unions.

Does that include the toilet paper?

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Why are businesses entitled to increase prices & profit margins? ...

Why shouldn't they be? Since when do they need permission from scabs like you to decide for themselves? We do not live in a communist state.

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It's not about "denying them a job just so they can take home a little bit more pay"as you repeatedly parrot.

That's exactly what it is. Denying reality doesn't make it go away.

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That's a bald faced lie....... people who belong to Unions get paid more.

What is a lie? You don't appear to be addressing anything I actually said.

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Why should someone who is prepared to work & contribute take a pay rate that is lower than the regulated pay rates or no better than the dole?

It is their choice whether to do so, though I can't imagine they would. I do not claim to know what is best for them. I certainly wouldn't denigrate them for wanting to get a job.

You should really try hard to put the persons name beside the selectively edited quote you copy & paste. Roll Eyes

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Gnads

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Re: scab
Reply #33 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:27am

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:17am:

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Frankly I know who's delusional.... remember Longie (North Korean General Luong Yi) trumpeting how one of his books discussed the very real tool a negotiator has of sacking the worker..... same here - one very real tool the tool negotiating on behalf of a company has is to not employ the worker at all... that, my son, is called thuggery where I come from...

Thuggery is what unions do. Deciding whether to offer someone a job, keep them in a job, accept a job, stay in a job is called exercising your freedom. We all have choices. The unions try to convince you that you don't, but you do. Fewer of course, thanks to the unions creating unemployment, but still a choice.

So do Unions of Employers. Hypocrite.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Jest

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Re: scab
Reply #34 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:30am

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:19am:

Quote:

What Unions call "scabs" in the industrial context, is what you, freediver and cods and the girls in her lammington baking club, call "Traitors" in war situations. Changed to "when it comes to their country

I am not at war with my employer. I am in a mutually beneficial arrangement. That you consider it war merely reveals how delusional the union mindset is.

Sometimes yes sometimes no but when the unions are on strike then your in that conflict situation. Truth is you know full well what the concept of scab is because you use it all the time when it suites you

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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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freediver

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Re: scab
Reply #35 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 9:43am

Gnads wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:17am:

Quote:

Frankly I know who's delusional.... remember Longie (North Korean General Luong Yi) trumpeting how one of his books discussed the very real tool a negotiator has of sacking the worker..... same here - one very real tool the tool negotiating on behalf of a company has is to not employ the worker at all... that, my son, is called thuggery where I come from...

Thuggery is what unions do. Deciding whether to offer someone a job, keep them in a job, accept a job, stay in a job is called exercising your freedom. We all have choices. The unions try to convince you that you don't, but you do. Fewer of course, thanks to the unions creating unemployment, but still a choice.

So do Unions of Employers. Hypocrite.

Can you give an example?

Jest wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:30am:

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:19am:

Quote:

What Unions call "scabs" in the industrial context, is what you, freediver and cods and the girls in her lammington baking club, call "Traitors" in war situations. Changed to "when it comes to their country

I am not at war with my employer. I am in a mutually beneficial arrangement. That you consider it war merely reveals how delusional the union mindset is.

Sometimes yes sometimes no but when the unions are on strike then your in that conflict situation. Truth is you know full well what the concept of scab is because you use it all the time when it suites you

Liar.

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Jest

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Re: scab
Reply #36 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 9:47am

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 9:43am:

Gnads wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:27am:

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:17am:

Quote:

Frankly I know who's delusional.... remember Longie (North Korean General Luong Yi) trumpeting how one of his books discussed the very real tool a negotiator has of sacking the worker..... same here - one very real tool the tool negotiating on behalf of a company has is to not employ the worker at all... that, my son, is called thuggery where I come from...

Thuggery is what unions do. Deciding whether to offer someone a job, keep them in a job, accept a job, stay in a job is called exercising your freedom. We all have choices. The unions try to convince you that you don't, but you do. Fewer of course, thanks to the unions creating unemployment, but still a choice.

So do Unions of Employers. Hypocrite.

Can you give an example?

Jest wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:30am:

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 7:19am:

Quote:

What Unions call "scabs" in the industrial context, is what you, freediver and cods and the girls in her lammington baking club, call "Traitors" in war situations. Changed to "when it comes to their country

I am not at war with my employer. I am in a mutually beneficial arrangement. That you consider it war merely reveals how delusional the union mindset is.

Sometimes yes sometimes no but when the unions are on strike then your in that conflict situation. Truth is you know full well what the concept of scab is because you use it all the time when it suites you

Liar.

So are you saying that when the union is on strike it is not in conflict with the employer and/or that you understand the concept of scab full well because you use it all the time when it suites you? Both states are true of course.

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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53053 At my desk.	Re: scab Reply #37 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 9:51am No. I said that you are a liar. I apologise for your confusion.
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Jest Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1399 NSW South Coast Gender:	Re: scab Reply #38 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 10:12am freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 9:51am: No. I said that you are a liar. I apologise for your confusion. Well, since you wont answer I'll just take it that you know that both statements are true but are unable to deny the truth of what I said.Thats OK, we all knew that anyway.
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freediver

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Re: scab
Reply #39 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 10:24am

Jest wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 10:12am:

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 9:51am:

No. I said that you are a liar. I apologise for your confusion.

Well, since you wont answer I'll just take it that you know that both statements are true but are unable to deny the truth of what I said.Thats OK, we all knew that anyway.

So when I called you a liar your takeaway message was that I agree with you? Not much gets through, does it?

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Jest

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Re: scab
Reply #40 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 10:48am

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 10:24am:

Jest wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 10:12am:

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 9:51am:

No. I said that you are a liar. I apologise for your confusion.

Well, since you wont answer I'll just take it that you know that both statements are true but are unable to deny the truth of what I said.Thats OK, we all knew that anyway.

So when I called you a liar your takeaway message was that I agree with you? Not much gets through, does it?

Yes one has to go with the evidence they have and since your continuing to post replies but not denying what I said means that the more likely reason is that you cant deny it. Thats not my concluded view you understand. Im still open to other possibilities but the moire you refuse to answer the worse it looks for you.

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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53053 At my desk.	Re: scab Reply #41 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 10:53am I see I was not clear enough. When I called you a liar, I expected you would understand that I am saying you are wrong. I apologise for your ongoing confusion.
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: scab
Reply #42 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 11:02am

Let me just get this right:-

According to the Book of Freediver, Union members stop people from getting jobs by having jobs; but when a management retrenches workers of any kind and then replaces them with others who are specifically not Union members and are signing on for lower pay and conditions for the same jobs - those SCABS are not stopping people from getting jobs?

Seems to me you are distorting the idea of the 'jobs market' by trying to view it as a Union/Scab dichotomy; and are mistaking brute force by management for industrial relations and fair negotiation.

Why is that? Have you been reading too much of the Preachings of Luong Yi?*

Seriously, freed - you used to be reasonably rational, but now you are taking on a rather sinister mental twist about your realities.

.. * for the uninitiated; Luong Yi is my version of Longie = the user LongWeekend59, who was rabidly right radical, knows it all (ask him), and an absolute trout in his discussions with others, using insult and put-down rather than facts. For this, I compared him to a North Korean or CCP General, and created the name Yuong Li for him, even bringing to the table on the subject of 'negotiation' the issue of first needing to settle the shape of the table.... Longie espouses the 'tool' of being able to sack a negotiating worker as a useful tool in negotiation - I responded that only a tool in negotiation would use such a tool....

Laughter - the best medicine for twits...... of course the title General Luong Yi went right over his hugely intelligent head... He Who Knows It All....

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« Last Edit: Oct 14^th, 2020 at 11:08am by Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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freediver

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Re: scab
Reply #43 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 11:09am

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According to the Book of Freediver, Union members stop people from getting jobs by having jobs

No.

To the extent they manage to increase wages and increase the cost of providing jobs through collusion, they cause unemployment. There are fewer jobs in total in the industry. It's not a zero sum game, they create a negative sum game. They benefit at everyone else's expense.

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Jest

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Re: scab
Reply #44 - Oct 14^th, 2020 at 11:10am

freediver wrote on Oct 14^th, 2020 at 10:53am:

I see I was not clear enough. When I called you a liar, I expected you would understand that I am saying you are wrong. I apologise for your ongoing confusion.

Baby steps, baby steps. I cant say your fast to catch on but your getting there. Now, the next step in rational human debate is to tell us why you think that when unions go on strike they're not in conflict with their employer and/or why you say Im wrong that you use the concept iof scab when it suites you. For example you might never think or speak of people who betray their country as "traitors". Is that the reason you say Im wrong. Go ahead you can do this.

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Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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