Australian Politics Forum - Scrap state governments!

Jasin

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Re: Scrap state governments!
Reply #30 - Sep 5^th, 2020 at 2:25pm

Dnarever wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 2:22pm:

Gazza wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2020 at 10:45am:

"Australian States and Territories comprise 610 politicians, duplicating the activities of 227 federal politicians. Australians support a further 537 local governments. We have approximately 7,700 elected politicians in Federal, State, and Local government, and we have 2,046,000 public servants nationally...Modern Australia is over-governed and in need of a overhaul. We need to scrap state governments.", Change.org petition.

Are we over-governed in Australia?

Can you think of another scheme that would allow for the employment of so many absolutely useless people ?

No. We are under-governed considerably. If Politics was a 'race' - then I'm sure you would want the majority of the population as 'political' as can be. Or do you prefer Chinese and 'their' Sport?

Just imagine - a nation filled with millions of little white Kevin Rudds and Milky Boy kids. Cheesy

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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Dnarever

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Re: Scrap state governments!
Reply #31 - Sep 5^th, 2020 at 2:44pm

The Federated States of Australia.

Makes more sense to unwind the federation and remove the Federal government. Most of our problems come from here.

The state governments are out biggest defence against an authoritarian federal government going out of control.

Remember how the Liberals went off the rails after they won a majority in the senate, Howard showed himself to be an authoritarian leader. Imagine with no State governments to draw the line. Imagine a dummy Like Abbott in control of everything with no moderation.

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« Last Edit: Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:21pm by Dnarever »

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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: Scrap state governments! Reply #32 - Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:15pm freediver wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 8:57am: Sure you can. Just draw a circle around each outbreak. That's what is happening now. How big would the circle be?
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Auggie

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Re: Scrap state governments!
Reply #33 - Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:19pm

The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 11:38am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 4^th, 2020 at 10:39pm:

If there are no state boundaries, where does the government 'draw the line' when quarantining? You can't have one law for one part of the country and a different law for another part in a unitary state.

Yes you can, and it's already been happening in Victoria for months now. Metropolitan Melbourne are on stage 4, regional Victoria are on stage 3. Before that Melbourne Metro and Mitchell shire were on stage 3 and the rest of Victoria wasn't.

Currently we are seeing the farcical situation where border communities (with no cases of covid) are being split in 2. Mildura is actually closer to Adelaide and has had no cases of Covid, but because it is part of Victoria it is in stage 3 lockdown.

Premiers seem to be having a competition on who can keep their borders closed the longest, because no one ever lost populist votes by appearing tough.

Sure, that's in Victoria; but how would you enforce effective quarantine between each State? Would a person from stage 4 metropolitan Melbourne not be allowed to travel to Perth but a person from Mildura can? Isn't more efficient and better to say no one from Victoria can enter another State?

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Dnarever

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Re: Scrap state governments!
Reply #34 - Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:24pm

Auggie wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:19pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 11:38am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 4^th, 2020 at 10:39pm:

If there are no state boundaries, where does the government 'draw the line' when quarantining? You can't have one law for one part of the country and a different law for another part in a unitary state.

Yes you can, and it's already been happening in Victoria for months now. Metropolitan Melbourne are on stage 4, regional Victoria are on stage 3. Before that Melbourne Metro and Mitchell shire were on stage 3 and the rest of Victoria wasn't.

Currently we are seeing the farcical situation where border communities (with no cases of covid) are being split in 2. Mildura is actually closer to Adelaide and has had no cases of Covid, but because it is part of Victoria it is in stage 3 lockdown.

Premiers seem to be having a competition on who can keep their borders closed the longest, because no one ever lost populist votes by appearing tough.

Sure, that's in Victoria; but how would you enforce effective quarantine between each State? Would a person from stage 4 metropolitan Melbourne not be allowed to travel to Perth but a person from Mildura can? Isn't more efficient and better to say no one from Victoria can enter another State?

Just make it north south east and west quadrants ?

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Auggie

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Re: Scrap state governments!
Reply #35 - Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:34pm

Dnarever wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:24pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:19pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 11:38am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 4^th, 2020 at 10:39pm:

If there are no state boundaries, where does the government 'draw the line' when quarantining? You can't have one law for one part of the country and a different law for another part in a unitary state.

Yes you can, and it's already been happening in Victoria for months now. Metropolitan Melbourne are on stage 4, regional Victoria are on stage 3. Before that Melbourne Metro and Mitchell shire were on stage 3 and the rest of Victoria wasn't.

Currently we are seeing the farcical situation where border communities (with no cases of covid) are being split in 2. Mildura is actually closer to Adelaide and has had no cases of Covid, but because it is part of Victoria it is in stage 3 lockdown.

Premiers seem to be having a competition on who can keep their borders closed the longest, because no one ever lost populist votes by appearing tough.

Sure, that's in Victoria; but how would you enforce effective quarantine between each State? Would a person from stage 4 metropolitan Melbourne not be allowed to travel to Perth but a person from Mildura can? Isn't more efficient and better to say no one from Victoria can enter another State?

Just make it north south east and west quadrants ?

And then what? Appoint a military governor over each quadrant to enforce different sets of laws over different quadrants?

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freediver

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Re: Scrap state governments!
Reply #36 - Sep 6^th, 2020 at 11:44am

Auggie wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:15pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 8:57am:

Sure you can. Just draw a circle around each outbreak. That's what is happening now.

How big would the circle be?

Bigger than the size of the outbreak.

Auggie wrote on Sep 4^th, 2020 at 10:41pm:

Local government has too few powers or responsibilities and resources to enact effective quarantine - the polity has to be big enough that it has enough resources to deal with these issues and not too big that spills over to other polities.

How big is that?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Dnarever

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Re: Scrap state governments!
Reply #37 - Sep 6^th, 2020 at 12:22pm

Auggie wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:24pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:19pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 11:38am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 4^th, 2020 at 10:39pm:

If there are no state boundaries, where does the government 'draw the line' when quarantining? You can't have one law for one part of the country and a different law for another part in a unitary state.

Yes you can, and it's already been happening in Victoria for months now. Metropolitan Melbourne are on stage 4, regional Victoria are on stage 3. Before that Melbourne Metro and Mitchell shire were on stage 3 and the rest of Victoria wasn't.

Currently we are seeing the farcical situation where border communities (with no cases of covid) are being split in 2. Mildura is actually closer to Adelaide and has had no cases of Covid, but because it is part of Victoria it is in stage 3 lockdown.

Premiers seem to be having a competition on who can keep their borders closed the longest, because no one ever lost populist votes by appearing tough.

Sure, that's in Victoria; but how would you enforce effective quarantine between each State? Would a person from stage 4 metropolitan Melbourne not be allowed to travel to Perth but a person from Mildura can? Isn't more efficient and better to say no one from Victoria can enter another State?

Just make it north south east and west quadrants ?

And then what? Appoint a military governor over each quadrant to enforce different sets of laws over different quadrants?

I was Joking but you could have a federal minister for the NE, SW etc.

Why would you need different laws, you just dismantled the states and the police are obviously gone as part of that structure at this point you effectively have no laws or any way to enforce them if you did.

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Dnarever Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 61867 Here Gender:	Re: Scrap state governments! Reply #38 - Sep 6^th, 2020 at 12:23pm Auggie wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:15pm: freediver wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 8:57am: Sure you can. Just draw a circle around each outbreak. That's what is happening now. How big would the circle be? I prefer a 20c coin for most circles.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53204 At my desk.	Re: Scrap state governments! Reply #39 - Sep 6^th, 2020 at 12:34pm Auggie is under the delusion that without states, no-one could possibly dream up arbitrary geographical boundaries.
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Auggie

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Re: Scrap state governments!
Reply #40 - Sep 6^th, 2020 at 7:33pm

freediver wrote on Sep 6^th, 2020 at 12:34pm:

Auggie is under the delusion that without states, no-one could possibly dream up arbitrary geographical boundaries.

Put it this way, the fact that the Covid-19 crisis has not affected the entire country the same way and given that different States imposed different measures is a reminder of the benefit of federalism - that is, when something happens in one part of the country it is less likely to spill over to the another part of the country.

New Zealand went into full lockdown. Why didn't they draw circles and quarantine certain areas?

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Auggie

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Re: Scrap state governments!
Reply #41 - Sep 6^th, 2020 at 7:35pm

Dnarever wrote on Sep 6^th, 2020 at 12:22pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:24pm:

Auggie wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 5:19pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 11:38am:

Auggie wrote on Sep 4^th, 2020 at 10:39pm:

If there are no state boundaries, where does the government 'draw the line' when quarantining? You can't have one law for one part of the country and a different law for another part in a unitary state.

Yes you can, and it's already been happening in Victoria for months now. Metropolitan Melbourne are on stage 4, regional Victoria are on stage 3. Before that Melbourne Metro and Mitchell shire were on stage 3 and the rest of Victoria wasn't.

Currently we are seeing the farcical situation where border communities (with no cases of covid) are being split in 2. Mildura is actually closer to Adelaide and has had no cases of Covid, but because it is part of Victoria it is in stage 3 lockdown.

Premiers seem to be having a competition on who can keep their borders closed the longest, because no one ever lost populist votes by appearing tough.

Sure, that's in Victoria; but how would you enforce effective quarantine between each State? Would a person from stage 4 metropolitan Melbourne not be allowed to travel to Perth but a person from Mildura can? Isn't more efficient and better to say no one from Victoria can enter another State?

Just make it north south east and west quadrants ?

And then what? Appoint a military governor over each quadrant to enforce different sets of laws over different quadrants?

I was Joking but you could have a federal minister for the NE, SW etc.

Why would you need different laws, you just dismantled the states and the police are obviously gone as part of that structure at this point you effectively have no laws or any way to enforce them if you did.

You'd need different laws because you're effectively saying that people in the east quadrant can't travel to the west quadrant.

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freediver

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Re: Scrap state governments!
Reply #42 - Sep 6^th, 2020 at 8:04pm

Auggie wrote on Sep 6^th, 2020 at 7:33pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 6^th, 2020 at 12:34pm:

Auggie is under the delusion that without states, no-one could possibly dream up arbitrary geographical boundaries.

Put it this way, the fact that the Covid-19 crisis has not affected the entire country the same way and given that different States imposed different measures is a reminder of the benefit of federalism - that is, when something happens in one part of the country it is less likely to spill over to the another part of the country.

New Zealand went into full lockdown. Why didn't they draw circles and quarantine certain areas?

Probably for the same reason Paramatta didn't.

Auggie wrote on Sep 4^th, 2020 at 10:41pm:

Local government has too few powers or responsibilities and resources to enact effective quarantine - the polity has to be big enough that it has enough resources to deal with these issues and not too big that spills over to other polities.

How big is that?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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The_Barnacle

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Re: Scrap state governments!
Reply #43 - Sep 7^th, 2020 at 11:11am

Auggie wrote on Sep 6^th, 2020 at 7:33pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 6^th, 2020 at 12:34pm:

Auggie is under the delusion that without states, no-one could possibly dream up arbitrary geographical boundaries.

Put it this way, the fact that the Covid-19 crisis has not affected the entire country the same way and given that different States imposed different measures is a reminder of the benefit of federalism - that is, when something happens in one part of the country it is less likely to spill over to the another part of the country.

New Zealand went into full lockdown. Why didn't they draw circles and quarantine certain areas?

They did.

In the recent outbreak Auckland went into a stricter lockdown than the rest of the country
And as I have already said, Victoria already has a 2 tiered system within the state.

It's not that hard. In fact it makes a lot more sense than sending distant towns like Mildura into lockdown simply because of the side of the Murray River they happen to be on.

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The Right Wing only believe in free speech when they agree with what is being said.

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Gazza

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Re: Scrap state governments!
Reply #44 - Sep 7^th, 2020 at 11:24am

Dnarever wrote on Sep 5^th, 2020 at 2:44pm:

The Federated States of Australia.

Makes more sense to unwind the federation and remove the Federal government. Most of our problems come from here.

The state governments are out biggest defence against an authoritarian federal government going out of control.

Remember how the Liberals went off the rails after they won a majority in the senate, Howard showed himself to be an authoritarian leader. Imagine with no State governments to draw the line. Imagine a dummy Like Abbott in control of everything with no moderation.

Either we're a country, or we're not.

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