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Honour killing in Europe (Read 1626 times)
Brian Ross
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Honour killing in Europe
Aug 2nd, 2020 at 1:45pm
 
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Ideas about personal honour are a major key to understanding violence. This is so today, when “honour” is often replaced by terms such as respect - with “dissing” as its opposite. It was even more true in the past, when many men and even some women fought over matters of honour.

We know this from numerous historical studies published in the last 20 years. These have considerably enriched our knowledge of the nature of violence. Earlier scholars often based their judgment on their own unfamiliarity with and repugnance of violence.

They viewed attackers and killers as senseless “others” and their activities as devoid of meaning. Of course the new insight does not imply that modern scholars excuse acts of violence. We don’t have to condone an activity in order to understand it.

The link between honour and violence characterises many societies. Obvious examples include the Japan of samurai days; Latin America, in particular the Colombia that Gabriel García Márquez wrote about; so-called honour killings, perpetrated globally, are a mainstay of current news.

But the link has been studied most extensively in Europe. So let me concentrate on that continent.

First we must be more specific: what concerns us most of all is traditional male honour. Originally, to be honourable meant very different things for men and for women. Whereas men took pride in sexual exploits, say, female honour was based on its opposite, chastity. Women were also expected to be passive and silent. The passivity demanded from them meant that they had only limited possibilities for maintaining their honour themselves.

Old Europe was a patriarchal society. An important part of men’s honour was precisely to keep up the honour of women (women who did fight actually went beyond what was expected). Men performed this task by attacking and taking revenge on other men whose actions had compromised their wife’s, daughter’s or mother’s honour.

But a man also reacted with violence when another man tried to diminish his honour directly, by insulting him, say. Thus, for men, honour and its defence were practically the same.

Male honour depended on physical courage, bravery and a propensity for violence. Being attacked or being insulted equally counted as stains upon a man’s honour, which could only be washed away by counter-attack. This idea probably originated among castes of warriors, but already in the middle ages artisans, merchants and peasants shared it. Moreover, any conflict between two or more men had repercussions for their honour.

Most historians believe that it is wrong to single out honour as one motive for fighting among others. The other motive would be a conflict over whose right it was to use a particular piece of land, for example. But if both men were convinced they had a right to the land, they considered it a matter of honour to physically defend their right. Murders related to conflicts over land not only occurred in Europe – they were numerous as well in 18th-century China.

We know of no society in which all violence is honourable. In medieval Europe theft counted as a dishonourable activity. Hence all violence used in order to lay your hands on someone else’s property was also dishonourable. There were exceptions even to this rule.

If two landlords had a vendetta and one arranged for stealing the other’s cattle, the community would consider this as part of the vendetta and therefore no stain upon the stealer’s honour. The typically infamous violent person was the highway robber. Significantly, such bandits often had few social ties linking them to any community.

Family ties, on the other hand, always had to do with honour in medieval Europe. Violence used in order to avenge the killing of a man’s brother, father or even distant cousin always counted as honourable, without exception. The victim’s family could take revenge on the actual killer but also on his relative. Even treachery, such as ambushing a man, was no stain upon the avenger’s honour. More generally, any notion of a fair fight was absent from the ethic of the vendetta.

We know of examples in which a party of five avengers, unable to find their relative’s killer, went to the home of his aged father instead and slaughtered the old man there.

In the 16th century this began to change. From then, only a fair fight of one against one counted as completely honourable. The duel was invented, in which an aristocrat or army officer issued a written challenge to one of his peers to fight with rapiers or pistols over a matter of honour. Their assistants, the “seconds,” were not expected to join in the combat.
German students of a Burschenschaft fighting a sabre duel, around 1900, painting by Georg Mühlberg (1863–1925). Wikimedia Commons

The notion of a fair fight was not confined to upper-class men. Men of the lowest social ranks knew their own duels in the form of knife fights. Instead of issuing a written challenge a man would, when insulted in a bar for example, invite the other to go outside with him. If one of the combatants was in the company of a friend, he would refrain from active support. Intervention by a third was only honourable if his purpose was to separate the two combatants.

In a few of such cases in Amsterdam the separator accidentally got stabbed to death.

[Cont'd]
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Brian Ross
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Re: Honour killing in Europe
Reply #1 - Aug 2nd, 2020 at 1:48pm
 
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The appearance of the notion of the fair fight was the first major change in the link between violence and honour. A more substantial change occurred in Europe from about the mid-18th century. The basis of male honour drifted away from its close association with physical bravery. Honour gradually became associated with inner virtue. Consequently, the necessity of employing violence in order to save one’s face when insulted or challenged greatly diminished.

Finally, a man could be non-aggressive and honourable at the same time. We call this change the spiritualisation of honour.

And yet, history never proceeds in a straight line. The spiritualisation of honour mainly affected the upper and middle classes. Among lower-class men the link between honour and violence remained alive to some extent and appears to have become stronger again in the last four decades or so.

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Jasin
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Re: Honour killing in Europe
Reply #2 - Aug 2nd, 2020 at 2:13pm
 
Old honours are a thing of the past.
Newer generations make up their own rules to fight by.
Hold onto the past too much and you will be left behind.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Jasin
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Re: Honour killing in Europe
Reply #4 - Aug 2nd, 2020 at 9:07pm
 
Islam just wants a Messiah to die for their sins, Moses. That's all.
France looks like a nice offering, no? Wink
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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moses
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Re: Honour killing in Europe
Reply #5 - Aug 2nd, 2020 at 9:27pm
 
It would take a zillion messiahs to cover the sins of the muslims, not too sure if there are that many left in this universe.

Methinks the muzzies are in over their heads.
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Setanta
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Re: Honour killing in Europe
Reply #6 - Aug 2nd, 2020 at 9:44pm
 
Sounds like Bobby should be excused from killing a few people here for challenging his manhood. It seems he's somewhat civilised. He doesn't even call for them to be banned. Unlike some retards.
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« Last Edit: Aug 2nd, 2020 at 9:51pm by Setanta »  
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Honour killing in Europe
Reply #7 - Aug 4th, 2020 at 2:39pm
 
Gospel truth about Islam# 4536:

females getting murdered by mysogonistic male scum - only ever happens in Islam.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Brian Ross
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Re: Honour killing in Europe
Reply #9 - Aug 5th, 2020 at 11:58am
 
...

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  You really have a one track mind, Moses.  Tsk, tsk, this thread is about what again?  Oh, that's right, "Honour killing in Europe."   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Jasin
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Re: Honour killing in Europe
Reply #10 - Aug 5th, 2020 at 1:37pm
 
Islam preparing for their last great Jihad.
France looks like the main target for stealing Christianity from the Middle-East.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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moses
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Re: Honour killing in Europe
Reply #11 - Aug 5th, 2020 at 1:46pm
 
snakemouth ross wrote: Quote:
Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  You really have a one track mind, Moses.  Tsk, tsk, this thread is about what again?  Oh, that's right, "Honour killing in Europe."


Old snakemouth is too dumb to see the correlation between gandis post: Quote:
females getting murdered by mysogonistic male scum - only ever happens in Islam.
 
and my post: Quote:


My point being that muslims have slaughtered at the very least, 100s of 1000s of innocent women and children, with their religious duty of jihad against the non believer and apostate believers. (could very well come under the heading of honour killings, *they are doing it as a religious requirement to the honour and glory of allah and islam*).

Oh well the slithering coward is always groveling around at the thought of the satanical allah.

Nothing new here folks.
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Brian Ross
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Re: Honour killing in Europe
Reply #12 - Aug 5th, 2020 at 5:57pm
 
moses wrote on Aug 5th, 2020 at 1:46pm:
snakemouth ross wrote: Quote:
Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  You really have a one track mind, Moses.  Tsk, tsk, this thread is about what again?  Oh, that's right, "Honour killing in Europe."


Old snakemouth is too dumb to see the correlation between gandis post: Quote:
females getting murdered by mysogonistic male scum - only ever happens in Islam.
 
and my post: Quote:


My point being that muslims have slaughtered at the very least, 100s of 1000s of innocent women and children, with their religious duty of jihad against the non believer and apostate believers. (could very well come under the heading of honour killings, *they are doing it as a religious requirement to the honour and glory of allah and islam*).

Oh well the slithering coward is always groveling around at the thought of the satanical allah.

Nothing new here folks.


...

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  You really have a one track mind, Moses.  Tsk, tsk, this thread is about what again?  Oh, that's right, "Honour killing in Europe." Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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moses
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Re: Honour killing in Europe
Reply #13 - Aug 6th, 2020 at 1:48pm
 
muslims have consistently raped tortured and slaughtered millions of innocent men women and children, as their offering to the honour and glory of the satanic allah.
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Brian Ross
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Re: Honour killing in Europe
Reply #14 - Aug 6th, 2020 at 2:43pm
 
moses wrote on Aug 6th, 2020 at 1:48pm:
muslims have consistently raped tortured and slaughtered millions of innocent men women and children, as their offering to the honour and glory of the satanic allah.


...

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  You really have a one track mind, Moses.  Tsk, tsk, this thread is about what again?  Oh, that's right, "Honour killing in Europe." Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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