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Good Bye Surplus (Read 17551 times)
John Smith
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Re: Good Bye Surplus
Reply #75 - Mar 12th, 2020 at 7:28pm
 
Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 12th, 2020 at 6:15pm:
John Smith wrote on Mar 12th, 2020 at 4:59pm:
Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 12th, 2020 at 3:56pm:
I do know that the real economy would be $5 Billion per annum worse off under Labor because that was their policy.




only if you look at one side of the coin. There were benefits to that policy that you seem to have forgotten to include in your synopsis Cheesy Cheesy


No benefit to the "real economy".

Just a $5 Billion hit to it.


don't be so daft all your life
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John Smith
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Re: Good Bye Surplus
Reply #76 - Mar 12th, 2020 at 7:29pm
 
Bam wrote on Mar 12th, 2020 at 5:11pm:
Why are you ignoring the real mess the Coalition has made to the economy in preference to posting wild-eyed hypothetical nonsense?



his instructions are that whenever the libs come under scrutiny, deflect, deflect, deflect
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Vic
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Re: Good Bye Surplus
Reply #77 - Mar 12th, 2020 at 8:41pm
 
Says it all

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Captain Nemo
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Re: Good Bye Surplus
Reply #78 - Mar 12th, 2020 at 9:24pm
 
Meanwhile ... more sensible evaluation of the Stimulus package ...


Morrison's coronavirus stimulus package shows sober, expert advice can still prevail


The Coalition has spent 10 years characterising cash handouts as budget-wrecking communism. This collective epiphany is interesting

...

If you’ve been watching closely you’ll know the official version of what Australia needs to do to stave off a recession triggered by the coronavirus has travelled quite a distance in a very short period of time.

The Morrison government started with we don’t need stimulus, then moved to countenancing a modest boost, before touching down on Thursday with a significant pump prime north of $17bn – a bunch of measures that looks a lot like the first stimulus the Rudd government unleashed during the global financial crisis.

Over that same period (which, to be clear, is only a couple of weeks) the government has also travelled from having a surplus in May, yeah baby, to “we’ll get back to you on when that will happen”.

So let’s start with the obvious.

Everybody is learning here, calibrating and recalibrating, in full public view, and the truth is there is so much uncertainty associated with this pandemic that forecasting the future feels more like astrology than economics – particularly with the White House warbler weaving incoherently all over the place, dragging febrile global markets along with him.

With due respect to all the unknowns, this much can be said.

At first blush the design of this economic stimulus package looks entirely sensible.

The engine room of the intervention – cash payments worth $4.76bn – will be targeted at more than 6 million Australians with a high marginal propensity to consume.

A bit of recent history. When the Morrison government gave people income tax cuts, they didn’t spend their windfall, they saved it. So targeting one-off payments at people who lack the luxury of saving does seem the best way of sending cautious consumers to the shops to deliver the desired economic benefit.

That strategy worked during the global financial crisis, and it is reasonable, in the broad, for Treasury to assume it can work again.

My only question would be whether $750 is the magic number; whether that is enough money to coax people to get out and spend for Australia at a time when people are fretful enough to be stampeding into supermarkets and getting into punch-ups over toilet paper.

Because if we cut to the chase, the success of this package requires two things: speed of delivery and confidence in the community.

It requires people and businesses to go out and spend their government handouts, not retreat to their bunkers like doomsday preppers.

The problem for Scott Morrison and Josh Frydenberg is a circular one. As a government you can try to engender national confidence by projecting steadiness, by working up a plan and telegraphing it with as much competence as you can muster. But you are also hostage to events largely beyond your control.

The government is hostage to people worried about whether they, or their loved ones, are going to succumb to an illness, which is a visceral fear; hostage to how and when this illness will spread, and the practical consequences of the pandemic (health systems stretched, schools and shops and businesses closing); hostage to whatever market-moving madness comes out of Donald Trump’s mouth on any given day (which must be one of the adrenaline-thumping unknowns of all).

In closing, a couple more things can be noted.

The first is that the government has managed to land this package, and the show hasn’t exploded – even though this is the Coalition, funding cash handouts to benefit recipients. This is behaviour that in more ideological quarters of the government could be considered highly suspect, even if the overarching objective is to keep people employed and the country out of recession.

Just remember the Coalition has spent much of the last 10 years characterising fiscal stimulus, including cash payments, as budget-wrecking communism, so assuming the current discipline holds, this collective epiphany is genuinely interesting.

It suggests that sober, expert advice and pragmatic thinking can sometimes prevail over the brimming feelings of the overconfident ignoramuses who loom large in public life and make it their business to be as destructive as possible.

I was beginning to wonder whether hoping for sense was a waste of energy, and this stimulus package suggests to me that the technocrats, both in the political and bureaucratic class, are still in the fight.

I don’t know about you but I find this reassuring.

The second thing to note is that the government has been sensible enough to reserve the right to do more in the event it needs to do more. It has given itself scope to go again at budget time in May if it judges a second round of stimulus is required.

This is good scope to have, because right now, we need all options on the table.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/mar/12/morrisons-coronavirus-stimulus-...


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Dnarever
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Re: Good Bye Surplus
Reply #79 - Mar 12th, 2020 at 9:31pm
 
Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 12th, 2020 at 3:56pm:
Vic wrote on Mar 12th, 2020 at 3:12pm:
Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 12th, 2020 at 2:30pm:
Bam wrote on Mar 12th, 2020 at 10:20am:
Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 12th, 2020 at 8:52am:
Yes, it's good bye surplus, but this is all good news for the Coalition.

"It's the economy stupid" has returned with a vengeance.

Speaking of stupid:

The country dodged a bullet when it decided not to elect Shorten and his fellow nongs.  Cool


Open BOTH eyes for a change.

The country's suffering much harder by electing a corrupt, mendacious, incompetent and malicious circus of self-serving muppets who are leading Australia into recession.



On the contrary, the country would have been $5 Billion per annum worse off in the real economy under Shorten Labor.




You don’t know that because Labor never got in.   The Coalition however are in.    They have tripled the debt left behind by labor in under three terms.   There is no surplus, no break even, just more debt.  Where is the money coming from to fund the stimulus package, more borrowing from China?     You worry about a maybe 5 billion dollar economic value if labor got in but don’t acknowledge a 1 trillion dollar debt under the Coalition.       


I do know that the real economy would be $5 Billion per annum worse off under Labor because that was their policy.

Ripping out $59 Billion over 10 years from self-funded retirees whose annual income was below $18,000.

i.e. Ripping away $5 Billion from the retail sector (the real economy).

That was Labor policy.

Thank your God that they weren't elected.  Cool


Remember this ? :

Shorten hits shareholders with plan for $59 billion revenue grab


By David Crowe
March 12, 2018 — 9.19pm


Labor will target more than 1 million Australian taxpayers who own shares in a $59 billion revenue push that would take its heaviest toll on retirees, as Bill Shorten wages war on “unfair” cash refunds and ramps up attacks on the rich.

In a bold move that hurts wealthier voters, the Opposition Leader will reveal plans to help balance the budget by cancelling cash refunds worth an average of $5000 a year to taxpayers who own shares and claim tax credits on their dividends.

The stunning decision takes aim at more affluent taxpayers in a “hit the rich” policy that is certain to spark a political fight over a group of voters still reeling from Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull’s move to scale back superannuation tax breaks two years ago.

https://i.imgur.com/UPbExoT.jpg

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten will announce another plank in Labor's economic policy on Tuesday.

Photo: Dominic Lorrimer

As Labor fights to hold the marginal seat of Batman against a threat from the Greens this weekend, Mr Shorten will blast the Coalition for creating a “loophole” in 2001 on the tax credits paid on dividends.

Mr Shorten opens the new fight over shareholder credits after his long row with Mr Turnbull over company tax cuts, where he has attacked the “big end of town” for not paying enough tax.

Labor is calculating the political pain from the bold new plan will be worthwhile when it uses the huge revenue gain to pay for policies at the next election - including personal income tax cuts.
The Labor policy, seen by Fairfax Media, is aimed at raising $5.6 billion in 2020 and a similar amount every year, equivalent to about $4,800 on average each year for every taxpayer affected.


This is based on Labor assumptions the reforms would hit about 8 per cent of taxpayers, or around 1.17 million individuals and superannuation funds - including 200,000 self-managed super funds.

In a key pledge, Mr Shorten will promise to continue with dividend imputation for millions of taxpayers and would only change the rules for those whose taxable income is so low they qualify for cash refunds.

“Everyone will still be able to use imputation credits to reduce their tax - but not to claim cash refunds,” he says in a draft of his remarks to a policy summit on Tuesday.
“Reforming the system to eliminate this concession will save the budget $11.4 billion over the final two years of the current forward estimates and $59 billion over the medium term.”
...

www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/shorten-hits-shareholders-with-plan-for-59-bi...


First person to identify franking credits as a problem that had to be fixed ?

Tony Abbott.
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Captain Nemo
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Re: Good Bye Surplus
Reply #80 - Mar 12th, 2020 at 9:39pm
 
Thankfully, that little turd didn't get his way either.  Cool
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Bam
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Re: Good Bye Surplus
Reply #81 - Mar 12th, 2020 at 10:33pm
 
Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 12th, 2020 at 9:39pm:
Thankfully, that little turd didn't get his way either.  Cool

Pick the poster who's living large on the franking credits wealthfare and doesn't want that rort touched.
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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
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Re: Good Bye Surplus
Reply #82 - Mar 12th, 2020 at 11:07pm
 
"Where is the money coming from for Rudd Mark2? "

Consolidated Revenue - ain't it a bitch?
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: Good Bye Surplus
Reply #83 - Mar 13th, 2020 at 9:54am
 
You’ll be right ScoMo.

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“Fantastic. Great move. Well done Angus”
 
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Bobby.
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Re: Good Bye Surplus
Reply #84 - Mar 13th, 2020 at 9:59am
 
ScoMo will have to borrow more money
for the cash handouts.
I suspect the national Govt debt
will now be $800 billion.

That's 4 times Rudd's debt of $200 billion.


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Captain Nemo
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Re: Good Bye Surplus
Reply #85 - Mar 13th, 2020 at 5:02pm
 
Bam wrote on Mar 12th, 2020 at 10:33pm:
Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 12th, 2020 at 9:39pm:
Thankfully, that little turd didn't get his way either.  Cool

Pick the poster who's living large on the franking credits wealthfare and doesn't want that rort touched.



The problem with Shorten / Bowen / Chalmers plan was that Franking Credits would continue for the rich, but those whose total annual income came in under $18,000 would lose their Tax Refunds.  Shocked

That's the problem and the fact that it would therefore be a hit to the real economy of $5 Billion per annum.

Obviously, if you rip away on average $5,000 from people living below the poverty line, that money goes missing from the consumer sector.

That's just basic economics.  Wink


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John Smith
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Re: Good Bye Surplus
Reply #86 - Mar 13th, 2020 at 5:06pm
 
Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 13th, 2020 at 5:02pm:
The problem with Shorten / Bowen / Chalmers pla



there is no problem with not refunding money that you never paid.

try get a refund for something you didn't pay for anywhere else and they'll laugh at you
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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
 
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Captain Nemo
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Re: Good Bye Surplus
Reply #87 - Mar 13th, 2020 at 5:26pm
 
John Smith wrote on Mar 13th, 2020 at 5:06pm:
Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 13th, 2020 at 5:02pm:
The problem with Shorten / Bowen / Chalmers pla



there is no problem with not refunding money that you never paid.

try get a refund for something you didn't pay for anywhere else and they'll laugh at you



Please, not that old erroneous "argument" again.

At he time franked dividends are paid out to shareholders, a proportion of the dividend is paid into the shareholders bank account.

About 30% of the dividend is paid to the Tax Office pending the annual Tax Return assessment.

If the tax-payer's total annual income comes in at $18,000 or less, then that money that has already been sitting in the Tax Office holding fund is returned to the tax-payer.

Just like any other Tax Return if the tax-payer qualifies to receive a Tax Return.

Shorten's plan was to rip away that Tax Return from those with a total annual income of $18,000 or less.  Sad

It can't be that hard to understand.  Roll Eyes

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John Smith
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Re: Good Bye Surplus
Reply #88 - Mar 13th, 2020 at 5:38pm
 
Captain Nemo wrote on Mar 13th, 2020 at 5:26pm:
Please, not that old erroneous "argument" again.



nothing erroneous about it. Company's taxes are not the shareholders refund.

It can't be that hard to understand
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Re: Good Bye Surplus
Reply #89 - Mar 13th, 2020 at 5:52pm
 
John Smith wrote on Mar 13th, 2020 at 5:38pm:
nothing erroneous about it. Company's taxes are not the shareholders refund.



Exactly. Company taxes are paid on behalf of shareholders (the owners of the company). Wink
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