Australian Politics Forum - Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake.

Yadda

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Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake.
Jan 21^st, 2020 at 7:37pm

AN ARGUMENT....
Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake.

Dictionary;
universal suffrage = = the right of all adults to vote in political elections.

"Something given, has no value."

RASCZAK - Starship Troopers

i.e.
Something [of value] given as a gift, and not earned, is not valued as much, as it perhaps should be ?

Today, basically, anyone with a pulse is entitled to have a say in electing our LAWMAKERS.

There is no other criteria which has to be satisfied.

In today's Australia, even many people who are serving a term of imprisonment!!!, have the right to vote to elect LAWMAKERS.

ARGUMENT;
We need to scrap universal suffrage, and replace it with an EARNED entitlement to vote [to elect our LAWMAKERS],
based upon some criteria [of effort] which reflects that the right to elect LAWMAKERS is a high social privilege.

Perhaps some sort of points system, where differing types of ---service to the nation--- goes towards earning points to an entitlement vote to elect LAWMAKERS ?

another [supporting?] argument, by Auggie;
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1579598706/0#0

Quote:

At Federation in Australia the Commonwealth Franchise Act 1902 denied the franchise to vote to anyone 'attainted of treason, or who had been convicted and is under sentence or subject to be sentenced for any offence....punishable by imprisonment for one year or longer'.[57]

In 1983 this disqualification was relaxed and prisoners serving a sentence for a crime punishable under the law for less than a maximum five years were allowed to vote.[58]

A further softening occurred in 1995 when the disenfranchisement was limited to those serving a sentence of five years or longer,[57][58] although earlier that year the Keating Government had been planning legislation to extend voting rights to all prisoners.[59]

Disenfranchisement does not continue after release from jail/prison......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disfranchisement#Australia

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Dnarever

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Re: Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake.
Reply #1 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 7:54pm

I vote no.

Anything making our elections less representative will also proportionally increase the level of corruption and the probability of electoral fraud.

This type of thing would likely create a class of non voters who would never qualify to vote, typically poor people I suspect.

The exact people who typically need more help would become irrelevant to the government, a class of people who have no vote and cannot hurt them at the polls.

You could in fact credibally think about the opposite - give the poorest 2 votes ? (only joking but gee would that not put a cat in the pigeon coup).

When you have one of the very best systems in the world stuffing around with it is really stupid.

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« Last Edit: Jan 21^st, 2020 at 8:08pm by Dnarever »

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 78311 Gender:	Re: Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake. Reply #2 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 7:54pm only an idiot would suggest such a thing
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52131 At my desk.	Re: Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake. Reply #3 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 7:55pm What criteria? We do not actually have universal suffrage, BTW. Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
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Dnarever

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Re: Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake.
Reply #4 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 8:16pm

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 7:55pm:

What criteria? We do not actually have universal suffrage, BTW.

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

Not sure how many are untested or not even thought of yet. Not even sure how democratic many governments are or not.

You could question how democratic the USA is at present ?

Elections influenced by foreign governments possibly even decided by foreign intervention.

Elections where the gerrymander is rampant.

Elections where the odds of successfully placing a vote is dependant on the area you vote in.

Elections where you can win the vote by over 3,000,000 votes and lose the election.

These guys were once believed to be the flag bearers of democracy now not so much.

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 55130 Gender:	Re: Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake. Reply #5 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 8:23pm freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 7:55pm: What criteria? We do not actually have universal suffrage, BTW. Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others. I do believe you cracked a funny.
Back to top	AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY. IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52131 At my desk.	Re: Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake. Reply #6 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 8:36pm It's an old saying Jasin.
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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 55130 Gender:	Re: Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake. Reply #7 - Jan 21^st, 2020 at 8:40pm Obviously older than me then.
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Yadda

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Re: Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake.
Reply #8 - Jan 22^nd, 2020 at 11:01am

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 7:55pm:

What criteria?

Yes, that is what i am asking.

Do we need to set some [more onerous] criteria, which would entitle an adult individual to have a right to vote ?

Do you think such a question is unwarranted, here, in 2020, in a country like Australia ?

.

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 7:55pm:

We do not actually have universal suffrage, BTW.

Convicted murderers and convicted child rapists [being adults], once released from prison have a right to vote for lawmakers.

Adult persons arriving in Australia, coming from non-democratic homelands, being granted residency in Australia, have a right to vote for lawmakers.

'universal suffrage' in Australia, sounds pretty 'universal' to me ?

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 7:55pm:

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

ARGUMENT;
Democracy, being either a good system, or an atrocious system of 'government by the [authority of the] people',
is wholly dependent upon the good character [or otherwise!!] of those who participate in that 'democratic' process/system of government.

Do you agree with that position/argument ?

And if you agree, would you like to debate a remedy ?

Quote:

A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
      Gary Strand, Usenet group sci.environment, 23 April 1990. [9]

Democracy is not freedom.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch.
Freedom comes from the recognition of certain rights which may not be taken, not even by a 99% vote.
      Marvin Simkin, "Individual Rights", Los Angeles Times, 12 January 1992:[10]

Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
      James Bovard, Lost Rights: The Destruction of American Liberty (1994), ISBN 0312123337, p. 333
      Also cited as by Bovard in the Sacramento Bee (1994)

.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1553471233/17#17
Quote:

To function as 'intended' [fairly, elegantly], the 'Democratic' form of political process, of governance and of selecting 'governors', is highly dependent upon an honest and incorruptible populace and political elite.

That is its weakness.

I added the word 'elegantly' to my quote above. I gave myself permission, to do so.

elegant = =
1 graceful and stylish.
2 pleasingly ingenious and simple.

.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1558211589/21#21
Quote:

Bobby. wrote on May 20^th, 2019 at 6:41am:

Now - how will all the people who are fed up with the millions
of immigrants coming here - have a voice?
Australian cities are overloaded and congested -
hospitals, schools, roads.
Crime is terrible - home invasions , car jackings, gang violence etc.
Expect millions more immigrants to arrive and the problem to get worse.

bobby,

'All those people' had a voice, and an opportunity, on election day, to support Fraser Anning's party.

That's Democracy.

Mob rule.

And 'the mob' clearly, isn't [that] concerned atm, about the effects of mass migration to Australia.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 89673 Proud Old White Australian Man Gender:	Re: Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake. Reply #9 - Jan 22^nd, 2020 at 11:11am Service to the Imperium is rewarded with full Citizenship... join the Mobile Infantry today...
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Yadda

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Re: Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake.
Reply #10 - Jan 22^nd, 2020 at 11:26am

@ Reply #9,

Merit [and sacrifice] is [usually] required, of those who seek favour and advantage.

Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake.
Reply #11 - Jan 22^nd, 2020 at 11:26am

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 8:36pm:

It's an old saying Jasin.

Never try an old Aussie saying or joke with a newchum - they get sooo sensitive... bloke running the relief organisation said he couldn't get his Jeep into some carpark and I riposted that it was his head not the car.. still going on.. shees - an ancient Aussie-ism...

Can't take the train to work - his head's too big to get in the door...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Pedro Curevo Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 500 Nth Coast NSW Gender:	Re: Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake. Reply #12 - Jan 22^nd, 2020 at 11:33am Every one should have the right to vote....then I know many people with strong opinions and yet cannot be bothered to vote and remain off the electoral roll....democracy at work.
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PZ547 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9282 Gender:	Re: Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake. Reply #13 - Jan 22^nd, 2020 at 2:46pm 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. who is supposed to have said the above, please? why are dogs spoken of in that way?
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The_Barnacle Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6205 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Scrap universal suffrage. Its a mistake. Reply #14 - Jan 22^nd, 2020 at 3:17pm freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2020 at 7:55pm: What criteria? . More importantly. who would set the criteria? It would be so open to abuse that we would quickly become non democratic. Compulsory voting is on of the best systems going around
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