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Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI? (Read 2959 times)
Auggie
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Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI?
Reply #45 - Jan 2nd, 2020 at 4:52pm
 
Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 1st, 2020 at 7:59pm:
Auggie wrote on Jan 1st, 2020 at 5:03pm:
Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 1st, 2020 at 3:09pm:
Auggie wrote on Jan 1st, 2020 at 2:50pm:
In reply #9, Minarchist opined that it would cost approx $245 billion, about $50 billion more than the current welfare budget. That's assuming that 75% of the population are above 18 years of age.

If we take that figure as correct, we also have to look at what the 'flow-on effects' of having such a policy. It would increase overall GDP because the middle-class would spend more money, thereby increasing demand of goods and services. This would result in more tax revenue overall in the long run.

If you're concerned about the extra $50 billion, I'd be happy to increase the age limit to 21 years or 25 years of age in order to reduce costs. Without having specific figures at hand, that would reduce the cost significantly.



First define this 'middle class', then give us a clear rendition and accurate reporting of where their discretionary spending goes.. (trips to Bali, Europe, deadstock investments,etc).

Far better to improve GDP (if that were the be-all and end-all, which it is not, since the system requires balance throughout to be 'efficient - you don't get a motor running more efficiently by increasing its output of exhaust gases alone, or more interestingly, adding more fuel to an already good mixture will only increase fuel usage) by raising the income of the majority, who WILL spend any discretionary income within THIS economy, and directly so - and not into 'deadstock' such as a new pool, or car, or anything else... their money will go to the largest areas of spending - food, utilities and so forth and will remain within THIS economy until subverted by Offshorites or Hoarders, and will thus have a far greater impact in several ways on economic performance.

I've explained to you countless times that there are no 'black holes of budget' from improving the lot of the lowest paid, but there are black holes of revenue and thus of budget from giving too much to the wealthy and any with an already more than adequate level of discretionary spending.


So, giving everyone $1000 per month wouldn't result in incomes being raised on the lowest who WILL spend any disposable income within this economy?


Not if $1000 is their only income and as long as it was additional to their current income.  Sounds like a reason to put a cap on it to me.. if you're talking about replacing pensions with $1000 a month - make it $1000 a week!

Better to pay everyone a pension oh retirement and tax the income and deemed income over and above..


I'm open to providing an additional stipend for low-income pensioners if necessary (but with superannuation now in full swing, I suspect that the number of pensioners will reduce quite a bit in the future). The UBI would then mainly replace unemployment benefits and provide additional income for low-income earners.
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freediver
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Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI?
Reply #46 - Jan 2nd, 2020 at 5:06pm
 
Auggie wrote on Jan 2nd, 2020 at 4:49pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 2nd, 2020 at 12:21pm:
Auggie wrote on Jan 1st, 2020 at 7:51pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 1st, 2020 at 7:16pm:
How much do you think it would cost Auggie?


$245 billion dollars.


So now Minarchist's thoughts are your own?

Did someone else tell you that a UBI was a good idea? That a UBI would increase GDP? How much of this represents an actual thought process of your own?


Right... So I was correct. You're just wanting to have a 'gotcha' moment, aren't you?


You were not correct Auggie because you are yet to have any of your own thoughts.
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM
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Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI?
Reply #47 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 12:05am
 
[quote author=augcaesarustus link=1576575506/45#45 date=1577947947]


The current situation includes superannuation income as regards pension - why would you want to alter it?  If you wish to discuss other areas that are genuine welfare - which Social Security is not - please do so.

It is inevitable that the pension cost will reduce in the future given that superannuation will come more and more into play - but there are flaws in the current system of super:-

1.  Inflation REAL as opposed to official, steadily erodes the 'nest egg' of superannuants.

2.  Cost and fees continually rape smaller superannuation accounts so as to ensure they will be dependent on pension in the future.

3. Lack of certainty in employment/periodic employment dictate that many such accounts wil NEVER prosper.

Thus superannuation may allay to some extent future bills due (not 'costs' to budget), and the superannuation system does not suit those you are discussing - those on the lowest levels of income and those forced into the New Swagman style of finding work.

Social Security recipients have no superannuation component - which is why I have suggested a single roof national superannuation scheme that places in each individual account a minimum per period.  That is not the only issue that needs to be addressed - such as totally disparate superannuation 'rights' that somehow adhere to some with the power to set them in place to suit themselves - but it IS a significant issue for any future Social Security system.

You need, once again, to address the full gamut of what IS 'welfare' (as opposed to Social Security) - I've offered you suggestions on what IS Welfare.... and it ain't pensions and unemployment benefits.

Let's try again:-

PPL
Childcare subsidies
Certain tax concessions for certain 'business' ventures
Tax holidays for mega-corporations
The current allowable deductions for an operating entities titled a 'business' - which deductions do not adhere to other operating entities titled 'individuals'...
Taxation of trust funds
Taxation of private or one person or family companies.
The never-ending argument that Company Tax is NOT shareholder tax, which is Personal Income Tax and not company tax.
The senseless argument that somehow, because a company pays the ATO up to 30% of dividend in advance and on behalf of the shareholder (Dividend Imputation/Franked Dividends), that shareholder is not liable to full tax on all income including the franked component.

AND:-  the underlying problems are the adherence to the current economic model - i.e. globalisation, the myth of labour (but not business) competing with poor third world nations,  the desperate "need" to raise GDP in isolation via pushing peasants into the nation in the millions when it and its infrastructure cannot sustain them, and the adherence to the Banana Republicanism of selling dirt with no solid secondary and tertiary industry behind it.
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« Last Edit: Jan 3rd, 2020 at 12:13am by Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM »  

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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