Australian Politics Forum - Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI?

Auggie

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Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI?
Dec 17^th, 2019 at 7:38pm

Recently, I have become more in favour of the universal basic income. I think the welfare state is bloated, bureaucratic and often soul-destroying, particularly for the poor.

Everyone adult over the age of 18 (could be 21 or 25 years) would receive a $1000 per month without condition.

UBI is actually liberating, since no one goes through the whole rigmarole of declaring income, speaking with a case officer or having anxiety over losing the payment.

The $1000 per month would eventually replace all welfare payments, with the possible exception of disability or aged-care supplemental payments.

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juliar Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 22966	Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI? Reply #1 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 7:47am But then the Socialists would say increase the basic income!!!!!
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macman Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2435 australia Gender:	Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI? Reply #2 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 7:54am juliar wrote on Dec 18^th, 2019 at 7:47am: But then the Socialists would say increase the basic income!!!!! The problem for the libs would be how they can avoid paying it to everybody.
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Bam Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21905 Gender:	Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI? Reply #3 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:13am The Libs would say, how do we privatise it to our mates and cronies so we can get fat political donations for ourselves?
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juliar Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 22966	Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI? Reply #4 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 9:16am Labor would promise to increase it but would have to borrow vast sums to do it and plunge Australia into debt. Can you imagine all the dead people who would be collecting it. But it would soon break down as a woman with 5 kids would demand more than a single pensioner.
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whiteknight Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9224 melbourne Gender:	Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI? Reply #5 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 9:39am Can we afford not to increase it?.
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Bam

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Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI?
Reply #6 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 9:57am

Auggie wrote on Dec 17^th, 2019 at 7:38pm:

Recently, I have become more in favour of the universal basic income. I think the welfare state is bloated, bureaucratic and often soul-destroying, particularly for the poor.

Everyone adult over the age of 18 (could be 21 or 25 years) would receive a $1000 per month without condition.

UBI is actually liberating, since no one goes through the whole rigmarole of declaring income, speaking with a case officer or having anxiety over losing the payment.

The $1000 per month would eventually replace all welfare payments, with the possible exception of disability or aged-care supplemental payments.

Please show us how you would budget $1000 a month. Make sure you include rent.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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Yadda

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Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI?
Reply #7 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 9:59am

Things which don't move and grow, and improve themselves, inside, they die, they expire, they 'give up the ghost'.

Just look at a 'resting' rock!

They were once people on a UBI.

What about sheep, and other cattle, in feed lots.

They all have a 'UBI'.

Do YOU want to be a sheep, just getting her daily 'UBI' ?

If you do, just relax, ....coz you already are one !

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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juliar Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 22966	Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI? Reply #8 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 10:16am Yadda Yadda is warming up to a Mosque address to demand Sharia Law.
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minarchist

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Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI?
Reply #9 - Dec 19^th, 2019 at 11:41am

Australia has a population of about 25 million. About 75% are aged over 18. If everyone received $500 per fortnight, this would cost $245 billion in the federal budget, compared to $192 billion in social security and welfare

About $45 billion is wasted in administration costs, so you'd save money in that respect if administration of the UBI was minimal or nonexistent. However, if the UBI is meant to be a full replacement of welfare, you can see where some people miss out:

- A pensioner would potentially miss out on Aged Care and other Assistance for the Aged
- A person receiving disability payments would potentially miss out on the NDIS and other Disability Services/Programs
- A person receiving the Carers Payment may be receiving less under a UBI, depending on the income they earn
- A family receiving Family Tax Benefits and/or Child Care Fee assistance may receive less than what both parents receive under a UBI

If you want to replace just the welfare payments with a UBI, you would then replace about $130 - $140 billion with $245 billion, thus having a budget shortfall of about $100 billion. The budget for 2019-2020 is estimated at $515 billion. Personally, I prefer a Negative Income Tax over a UBI as it offers an incentive to earn more.

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« Last Edit: Dec 19^th, 2019 at 11:49am by minarchist »

People accuse Capitalism of being a "dog eat dog" system, yet it was the Communists who ate each other when they were starving!

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 90228 Proud Old White Australian Man Gender:	Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI? Reply #10 - Dec 20^th, 2019 at 1:58am Define 'welfare' first - then we can talk...
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI?
Reply #11 - Dec 20^th, 2019 at 1:59am

Bam wrote on Dec 18^th, 2019 at 9:57am:

Auggie wrote on Dec 17^th, 2019 at 7:38pm:

Recently, I have become more in favour of the universal basic income. I think the welfare state is bloated, bureaucratic and often soul-destroying, particularly for the poor.

Everyone adult over the age of 18 (could be 21 or 25 years) would receive a $1000 per month without condition.

UBI is actually liberating, since no one goes through the whole rigmarole of declaring income, speaking with a case officer or having anxiety over losing the payment.

The $1000 per month would eventually replace all welfare payments, with the possible exception of disability or aged-care supplemental payments.

Please show us how you would budget $1000 a month. Make sure you include rent.

"Gonner!" You got him.... cold and clean... one shot...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Auggie

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Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI?
Reply #12 - Dec 27^th, 2019 at 5:28pm

Bam wrote on Dec 18^th, 2019 at 9:57am:

Auggie wrote on Dec 17^th, 2019 at 7:38pm:

Recently, I have become more in favour of the universal basic income. I think the welfare state is bloated, bureaucratic and often soul-destroying, particularly for the poor.

Everyone adult over the age of 18 (could be 21 or 25 years) would receive a $1000 per month without condition.

UBI is actually liberating, since no one goes through the whole rigmarole of declaring income, speaking with a case officer or having anxiety over losing the payment.

The $1000 per month would eventually replace all welfare payments, with the possible exception of disability or aged-care supplemental payments.

Please show us how you would budget $1000 a month. Make sure you include rent.

The idea isn't is to provide a monetary amount that a person could live off - that's why people need to work. The idea of the basic income is that it provides at least some relief for low-income people.

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Auggie

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Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI?
Reply #13 - Dec 27^th, 2019 at 5:33pm

minarchist wrote on Dec 19^th, 2019 at 11:41am:

Australia has a population of about 25 million. About 75% are aged over 18. If everyone received $500 per fortnight, this would cost $245 billion in the federal budget, compared to $192 billion in social security and welfare

About $45 billion is wasted in administration costs, so you'd save money in that respect if administration of the UBI was minimal or nonexistent. However, if the UBI is meant to be a full replacement of welfare, you can see where some people miss out:

- A pensioner would potentially miss out on Aged Care and other Assistance for the Aged
- A person receiving disability payments would potentially miss out on the NDIS and other Disability Services/Programs
- A person receiving the Carers Payment may be receiving less under a UBI, depending on the income they earn
- A family receiving Family Tax Benefits and/or Child Care Fee assistance may receive less than what both parents receive under a UBI

If you want to replace just the welfare payments with a UBI, you would then replace about $130 - $140 billion with $245 billion, thus having a budget shortfall of about $100 billion. The budget for 2019-2020 is estimated at $515 billion. Personally, I prefer a Negative Income Tax over a UBI as it offers an incentive to earn more.

So, based on your numbers, it's pretty much on par in terms of cost, with the UBI costing slightly more. However, much of this money would be spent back into the economy, so in this regard it would pay for itself in GDP terms.

They will lose out on other benefits, but the idea is based on the libertarian principle of personal responsibility without having people and children starve to death.

The main benefit of UBI is that it's unconditional - there's no need to apply to Centrelink and report your income, or be under the worry that you may lose your payment. It's guaranteed and it's unconditional.

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Auggie

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Re: Should we reduce welfare in favour of UBI?
Reply #14 - Dec 27^th, 2019 at 5:34pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 20^th, 2019 at 1:59am:

Bam wrote on Dec 18^th, 2019 at 9:57am:

Auggie wrote on Dec 17^th, 2019 at 7:38pm:

Recently, I have become more in favour of the universal basic income. I think the welfare state is bloated, bureaucratic and often soul-destroying, particularly for the poor.

Everyone adult over the age of 18 (could be 21 or 25 years) would receive a $1000 per month without condition.

UBI is actually liberating, since no one goes through the whole rigmarole of declaring income, speaking with a case officer or having anxiety over losing the payment.

The $1000 per month would eventually replace all welfare payments, with the possible exception of disability or aged-care supplemental payments.

Please show us how you would budget $1000 a month. Make sure you include rent.

"Gonner!" You got him.... cold and clean... one shot...

I don't believe that the UBI should be a replacement for work; it's simply a supplement that provides relief for low-income earners.

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