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⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜ (Read 2317 times)
ProudKangaroo
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Re: ⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜
Reply #15 - May 4th, 2019 at 10:36am
 
Quote:
Efforts to prevent public disclosure of evidence.
In the summer of 2017, the President learned that media outlets were asking questions about the June 9, 2016 meeting at Trump Tower between senior campaign officials, including Donald Trump Jr., and a Russian lawyer who was said to be offering damaging information about Hillary Clinton as “part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.” On several occasions, the President directed aides not to publicly disclose the emails setting up the June 9 meeting, suggesting that the email would not leak and that the number of lawyers with access to them should be limited. Before the emails became public, the President edited a press statement from Trump Jr. by deleting a line that acknowledged that the meeting was with “an individual who [Trump Jr.] was told might have information helpful to the campaign” and instead said only that the meeting was about adoptions of Russian children. When the press asked questions about the President’s involvement in Trump Jr.’s statement, the President's personal lawyer repeatedly denied the President had played any role.


More actions from the President in trying to cover op the truth.  Again this goes to his intent.

Quote:
Further efforts to have the Attorney General take control of the investigation.
In early summer 2017, the President called Sessions at home and again asked him to reverse his recusal from the Russia investigation. Sessions did not reverse his recusal. In October 2017, the President met privately with Sessions in the Oval Office and asked him to “take [a] look” at investigating Clinton. In December 2017, shortly after Flynn pleaded guilty pursuant to a cooperation agreement, the President met with Sessions in the Oval Office and suggested, according to notes taken by a senior adviser, that if Sessions unrecused and took back supervision fo the Russia investigation, he would be a “hero.” The President told Sessions, “I’m not going to do anything or direct you to do anything. I just want to be treated fairly.” IN response, Sessions volunteered that he had never seen anything “improper” on the campaign and told the President there was a “whole new leadership team” in place. He did not unrecuse.


More to Trump's intent.  These are not the actions of someone who is being transparent, fully cooperative and has nothing to hide.

Quote:
Efforts to have McGahn deny that the President had ordered him to have the Special Counsel removed.
In early 2018, the press reported that the President had directed MCGahn to have the Special Counsel removed in June 2017 and that McGahn had threatened to resign rather than carry out the order. The President reacted to the news stories by directed WHite House officials to tell McGahn to dispute the story and create a record stating he had not been ordered to have the Special Counsel removed. McGahn told those officials that the media reports were accurate in stating that the President had directed McGahn to have the Special Counsel removed.The President then met with McGahn in the Oval Office and again pressured him to deny the reports. In The same meeting, the President also asked McGahn why he had told the Special Counsel about the President’s efforts to remove the Special Counsel and why McGahn took notes of his conversations with the President. McGahn refused to back away from what he remembered happening and perceived the President to be testing his mettle.


Trump now asking members of his team to fabricate records to hide his intention to have Mueller removed.  Intent, etc etc.

Quote:
Conduct towards Flynn, Manafort, [HOM].
After Flynn withdrew from a joint defense agreement with the President and began cooperating with the government, the President's personal counsel left a message for Flynn 's attorneys reminding them of the President 's warm feelings towards Flynn, which he said "still remains," and asking for a "heads up" if Flynn knew "information that implicates the President." When Flynn's counsel reiterated that Flynn could no longer share information pursuant to a joint defense agreement, the President's personal counsel said he would make sure that the President knew that Flynn's actions reflected "hostility" towards the President. During Manafort's prosecution and when the jury in his criminal trial was deliberating, the President praised Manafort in public, said that Manafort was being treated unfairly, and declined to rule out a pardon. After Manafort was convicted, the President called Manafort "a brave man" for refusing to "break" and said that "flipping" "almost ought to be outlawed. [Harm to Ongoing Matter].


If there were no Trump wrongdoings, why would he be concerned about being implicated?  He's also attempting to tamper with witness testimony.
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Re: ⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜
Reply #16 - May 4th, 2019 at 10:36am
 
Quote:
Conduct involving Michael Cohen.
The President's conduct towards Michael Cohen, a former Trump Organization executive, changed from praise for Cohen when he falsely minimized the President's involvement in the Trump Tower Moscow project, to castigation of Cohen when he became a cooperating witness.

From September 2015 to June 2016, Cohen had pursued the Trump Tower Moscow project on behalf of the Trump Organization and had briefed candidate Trump on the project numerous times, including discussing whether Trump should travel to Russia to advance the deal.

In 2017, Cohen provided false testimony to Congress about the project, including stating that he had only briefed Trump on the project three times and never discussed travel to Russia with him, in an effort to adhere to a "party line" that Cohen said was developed to minimize the President's connections to Russia. While preparing for his congressional testimony. Cohen had extensive discussions with the President's personal counsel, who, according to Cohen, said that Cohen should "stay on message" and not contradict the President. After the FBI searched Cohen's home and office in April 2018, the President publicly asserted that Cohen would not "flip," contacted him directly to tell him to "stay strong," and privately passed messages of support to him. Cohen also discussed pardons with the President's personal counsel and believed that if he stayed on message he would be taken care of. But after Cohen began cooperating with the government in the summer of 2018, the President publicly criticized him, called him a "rat," and suggested that his family members had committed crimes.


Witness tampering, direction to give false testimony, we know all of this already.

Quote:
Overarching factual issues.
We did not make a traditional prosecution decision about these facts, but the evidence we obtained supports several general statements about the President’s conduct.

Several features of the conduct we investigated distinguish it from typical obstruction-of-justice cases. First, the investigation concerned the President, and some of his actions, such as firing the FBI director, involved facially lawful acts within his Article II authority, which raises constitutional issues discussed below. At the same time, the President’s position as the head of the Executive Branch provided him with unique and powerful means of influencing official proceedings, subordinate officers, and potential witnesses – all of which is relevant to potential obstruction-of-justice analysis. Second, unlike cases in which a subject engages in obstruction of justice to cover up a crime, the evidence we obtained did not establish that the President was involved in an underlying crime related to Russian interference. Although the obstruction statutes do not require proof of such a crime, the absence of that evidence affects the analysis of the President’s intent and requires consideration of other possible motives for his conduct. Third, many of the President’s acts directed at witnesses, including discouragement of cooperation with the government and suggestions of possible future pardons, took place in public view. That circumstance is unusual, but no principle of law excludes public acts from the reach of obstruction laws. If the likely effect of public acts is to influence witnesses or alter their testimony, the harm to the justice system’s integrity is the same.

Although the series of events we investigated involved discrete acts, the overall pattern of the President’s conduct towards the investigations can shed light on the nature of the President’s acts and the inferences that can be drawn about his intent. In particular, the actions we investigated can be divided into two phases, reflecting a possible shift in the President’s motives. The first phase covered the period from the President’s first interactions with Comey through the President’s firing of Comey. During that time, the President had been repeatedly told he was not personally under investigation. Soon after the firing of Comey and the appointment of the Special Counsel, however, the President became aware that his own conduct was being investigated in an obstruction-of-justice inquiry. At that point, the President engaged in a second phase of conduct, involving public attacks on the investigation, non-public efforts to control it, and efforts in both public and private to encourage witnesses not to cooperate with the investigation. Judgments about the nature of the President’s motives during each phase would be informed by the totality of the evidence.
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Re: ⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜
Reply #17 - May 4th, 2019 at 10:38am
 
And then there is the conclusion,

Quote:
CONCLUSION

Because we determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment, we did not draw ultimate conclusions about the President's conduct. The evidence we obtained about the President's actions and intent presents difficult issues that would need to be resolved if we were making a traditional prosecutorial judgment. At the same time, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, we are unable to reach that judgment. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.


Given the framework and terms the report and investigation set, because of the possible constitutional issues with the power that has given the President, but his exercising that power could constitute obstruction of justice, the only the conclusion the investigation could reach was that Trump was innocent of that claim.

The report clearly states, as highlighted above, that the evidence did not support such an exoneration.  This is, in terms of the framework of the report, the closed conclusion Mueller could reach that would claim that Trump Obstructed Justice.

But since I dare say everyone insisting there were no crimes, no collusion, no obstruction and complete exoneration and vindication, at least in this and a few other popular threads have not bothered to read the report but simply got their talking points from the usual suspects, saying what they wanted to hear, I fully expect the usual response to information that doesn't suit them, so here we go...

I already know I've been wasting my time putting this together for you all in black and white as you demanded and I do, and I know that such a request would never, ever be reciprocated in return.

But the truth and the facts matter, so I've done it anyway, and I'll do it again if needed.

READ THE REPORT.
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Re: ⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜
Reply #18 - May 4th, 2019 at 12:26pm
 
thank you for your great effort to summarise the report.  I very doubt people here would read it all.  They are taking the stance that, just like AG Barr, as long as there is no charge, Trump is presumed innocent by default.
Nothing wrong with that perspective, but it is ignorant of the reasons why Mueller not laying charge and the matter is long from being settled.

From what i read and heard, basically there is no hard evidence or illegal activity on Trump's involvement in collusion, but he did everything to stop the investigations, which made him either stupid or suspicious.
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ProudKangaroo
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Re: ⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜
Reply #19 - May 4th, 2019 at 12:32pm
 
kreepy wrote on May 4th, 2019 at 12:26pm:
thank you for your great effort to summarise the report.  I very doubt people here would read it all.  They are taking the stance that, just like AG Barr, as long as there is no charge, Trump is presumed innocent by default.
Nothing wrong with that perspective, but it is ignorant of the reasons why Mueller not laying charge and the matter is long from being settled.

From what i read and heard, basically there is no hard evidence or illegal activity on Trump's involvement in collusion, but he did everything to stop the investigations, which made him either stupid or suspicious.


That he did, but his saving grace, at least so far, is the protection against prosecution he has thanks to the DOJ, the members of his staff who refused to follow through with his orders that and the recommendation that those who did, such as Don Jr, it's questionable on what their intent was because they're not considered smart enough to have known the illegalities of what they were doing, in his case, meeting with the Russians in contravention to the emoluments clause of the constitution.

It's interesting that ignorance of the law seems to be a valid protection in this case...

I wonder if Clinton were to claim she didn't know that deleting her emails was wrong if the right would forgive her as they expect everyone else to do of Trump?

All I'll say is this, in the hopes of perhaps enlighting even one of the people on here who is still defending Trump, you've gone after Hillary countless times when there was ZERO evidence, so imagine that everything in the report was about her, how would you react?

Ask yourself why you'd be so hard on her, yet given the same evidence, you're still protecting Trump.

Ask yourself where your loyalties are, is it to the truth and the facts you keep going on about, or Trump.

There is no wrong answer, but it may help you live a little more grounded in reality if you at least know the answers to these questions.

We don't need to know them.
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Re: ⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜
Reply #20 - May 4th, 2019 at 1:32pm
 
Quote:
Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction


That was his opinion but didn't seem very well founded.

In fact he agreed with what Mueller said. They both say that you cannot charge the President with obstruction.

Then Dersh says that he should have made the call. How could he make the call when the evidence is clearly saying that Trump obstructed justice when they both agree that he cannot be charged even if guilty.

What Muller has done is to record and lay out all the evidence that may be used by the government in a well deserved impeachment case or to be used legally when Trump leaves office and is no longer beyond the law.
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Re: ⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜
Reply #21 - May 4th, 2019 at 9:15pm
 
Bottom line, the President can never be held guilty of a criminal act for merely discharging powers given him expressly by the US Constitution.

The US Constitution expressly gives the President the power to nominate & fire subordinates. Comey was a subordinate, & so was Mueller.........furthermore, Constitutionally the President of the United States isn't required to give any reason for doing so, be they fired for on a whim or not is immaterial. Comey might have worn brown sox, & the President hates brown sox......he screams yer fired......Constitutionally, the President would be completely within the rights granted by the powers assigned him in the US Constitution.


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Re: ⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜
Reply #22 - May 4th, 2019 at 9:40pm
 
Panther wrote on May 4th, 2019 at 9:15pm:
Bottom line, the President can never be held guilty of a criminal act for merely discharging powers given him expressly by the US Constitution.

The US Constitution expressly gives the President the power to nominate & fire subordinates. Comey was a subordinate, & so was Mueller.........furthermore, Constitutionally the President of the United States isn't required to give any reason for doing so, be they fired for on a whim or not is immaterial. Comey might have worn brown sox, & the President hates brown sox......he screams yer fired......Constitutionally, the President would be completely within the rights granted by the powers assigned him in the US Constitution.




So you agree with myself, Dersh and Mueller.

He can not be charged, he however can be impeached which is what would happen if the republicans were honest or he could be charged when he leaves office if anyone can be bothered.


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ProudKangaroo
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Re: ⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜
Reply #23 - May 4th, 2019 at 9:43pm
 
Hence the constitutional crisis that would have resulted should Mueller have ruled given the evidence he uncovered.

That is why in that context the line below has so much meaning,

ProudKangaroo wrote on May 4th, 2019 at 10:38am:
Quote:
CONCLUSION

Because we determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment, we did not draw ultimate conclusions about the President's conduct. The evidence we obtained about the President's actions and intent presents difficult issues that would need to be resolved if we were making a traditional prosecutorial judgment. At the same time, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, we are unable to reach that judgment. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.


The idea of "no further indictments" and "total exoneration" clearing Trump of wrongdoing as a result of the Mueller report is just factually incorrect.

Mueller laid out the evidence and it's up to Congress and the Republicans to decide if they care about the rule of law and if they think what Trump has done is worthy of impeachment so he can face charges.

The Mueller report was devastating to Trump and now he's facing more scrutiny than ever.

Every refusal to answer questions, refusal to release his tax returns or lie about anything from the important to the mundane, it's all going towards the case of impeachment.

There is a redline that he'll cross that not even the Republicans can ignore.

If anything, that's the storm that's coming.

But will it ever come?
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Re: ⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜
Reply #24 - May 7th, 2019 at 7:59pm
 
Trump can only be impeached based on treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanours

NO proof of Treason
NO proof of Bribery
NO proof of High Crimes
NO proof of misdemeanour
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Re: ⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜
Reply #25 - May 7th, 2019 at 8:52pm
 
Maqqa wrote on May 7th, 2019 at 7:59pm:
Trump can only be impeached based on treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanours

NO proof of Treason
NO proof of Bribery
NO proof of High Crimes
NO proof of misdemeanour


There is more to it than that.  A large majority of scholars agree that impeachable offences are not limited by the criminal code. 

The best definition of impeachable offense comes from the legal scholar Charles Black, who argued in 1974 that a president may be impeached for "offences (1) which are extremely serious, (2) which in some way corrupt or subvert the political and governmental process, and (3) which are plainly wrong in themselves to a person of honor, or to a good citizen, regardless of words on the statute books."

You can read more about it here,

https://www.lawfareblog.com/impeachable-offense
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Re: ⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜
Reply #26 - May 7th, 2019 at 9:45pm
 
ProudKangaroo wrote on May 7th, 2019 at 8:52pm:
Maqqa wrote on May 7th, 2019 at 7:59pm:
Trump can only be impeached based on treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanours

NO proof of Treason
NO proof of Bribery
NO proof of High Crimes
NO proof of misdemeanour


There is more to it than that.  A large majority of scholars agree that impeachable offences are not limited by the criminal code. 

The best definition of impeachable offense comes from the legal scholar Charles Black, who argued in 1974 that a president may be impeached for "offences (1) which are extremely serious, (2) which in some way corrupt or subvert the political and governmental process, and (3) which are plainly wrong in themselves to a person of honor, or to a good citizen, regardless of words on the statute books."

You can read more about it here,

https://www.lawfareblog.com/impeachable-offense



The key word is he "ARGUED"

He can argue until he's blue in the face but this has not be tested.

The law is clear - TREASON, BRIBERY, HIGH CRIMES or MISDEMEANOUR

At this stage they are trying to tie him to a misdemeanour with very tenuous threads at best
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ProudKangaroo
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Re: ⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜
Reply #27 - May 8th, 2019 at 10:06am
 
Maqqa wrote on May 7th, 2019 at 9:45pm:
ProudKangaroo wrote on May 7th, 2019 at 8:52pm:
Maqqa wrote on May 7th, 2019 at 7:59pm:
Trump can only be impeached based on treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanours

NO proof of Treason
NO proof of Bribery
NO proof of High Crimes
NO proof of misdemeanour


There is more to it than that.  A large majority of scholars agree that impeachable offences are not limited by the criminal code. 

The best definition of impeachable offense comes from the legal scholar Charles Black, who argued in 1974 that a president may be impeached for "offences (1) which are extremely serious, (2) which in some way corrupt or subvert the political and governmental process, and (3) which are plainly wrong in themselves to a person of honor, or to a good citizen, regardless of words on the statute books."

You can read more about it here,

https://www.lawfareblog.com/impeachable-offense



The key word is he "ARGUED"

He can argue until he's blue in the face but this has not be tested.

The law is clear - TREASON, BRIBERY, HIGH CRIMES or MISDEMEANOUR

At this stage they are trying to tie him to a misdemeanour with very tenuous threads at best


The point is that he wasn't charged for Obstruction or Conspiracy not because he's innocent, but because he's the President.

It's up to Congress now to stand up and let everyone know where they stand on the "Rule of Law".  If they only apply it to their opposition is says everything we need to know.
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Re: ⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜
Reply #28 - May 8th, 2019 at 10:09am
 
Impeachment is a political not a criminal action and at the moment and for the foreseeable it’s not  politically possible.
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ProudKangaroo
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Re: ⮞ Dershowitz: Mueller blew it on obstruction ⮜
Reply #29 - May 8th, 2019 at 10:14am
 
Secret Wars wrote on May 8th, 2019 at 10:09am:
Impeachment is a political not a criminal action and at the moment and for the foreseeable it’s not  politically possible.


Not unless the Republics stand up for what they, apparently, believe in.

The question is now, will lawmakers attempt to change the laws so Trump can't run out the clock in office and rely on the statute of limitations to keep him from facing prosecution?
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