Australian Politics Forum - Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones

Baronvonrort

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Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones
Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 1:17pm

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Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones, German study shows

Electric vehicles in Germany account for more CO2 emissions than diesel ones, according to a study by German scientists.
When CO2 emissions linked to the production of batteries and the German energy mix - in which coal still plays an important role - are taken into consideration, electric vehicles emit 11% to 28% more than their diesel counterparts, according to the study, presented on Wednesday at the Ifo Institute in Munich.

Mining and processing the lithium, cobalt and manganese used for batteries consume a great deal of energy. A Tesla Model 3 battery, for example, represents between 11 and 15 tonnes of CO2. Given a lifetime of 10 years and an annual travel distance of 15,000 kilometres, this translates into 73 to 98 grams of CO2 per kilometre, scientists Christoph Buchal, Hans-Dieter Karl and Hans-Werner Sinn noted in their study.

The CO2 given off to produce the electricity that powers such vehicles also needs to be factored in, they say.

When all these factors are considered, each Tesla emits 156 to 180 grams of CO2 per kilometre, which is more than a comparable diesel vehicle produced by the German company Mercedes, for example.

The German researchers therefore take issue with the fact that European officials view electric vehicles as zero-emission ones. They note further that the EU target of 59 grams of CO2 per km by 2030 corresponds to a “technically unrealistic” consumption of 2.2 litres of diesel or 2.6 litres of gas per 100 kms.

These new limits pressure German and other European car manufacturers into switching massively to electric vehicles whereas, the researchers feel, it would have been preferable to opt for methane engines, “whose emissions are one-third less than those of diesel motors.”

Oscar Schneider
The Brussels Times
http://www.brusselstimes.com/business/technology/15050/electric-vehicles-emit-mo...

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Laugh till you cry Gold Member Offline Posts: 13817 In your happy place Gender:	Re: Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones Reply #1 - Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 1:29pm Wrong again darlings: https://twitter.com/AukeHoekstra/status/1120327764543004672?s=19
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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17471 Gender:	Re: Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones Reply #2 - Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 1:33pm Laugh till you cry wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 1:29pm: Wrong again darlings: Twitter eh, is that where Twits like you get your information?
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Prime Minister for Canyons Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 26906 Canberra Gender:	Re: Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones Reply #3 - Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 1:34pm Easy solution then. Renewables. Done
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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones
Reply #4 - Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 1:38pm

https://electrek.co/2019/04/22/study-electric-cars-dirtier-diesel-debunked/

Seems as though there were some flaws, in qwhich recycling of the battery wasn't taken into account, plus as well not taking into account all the energy used to produce, store and move the diesel.

Additionally, even the study talks about the facts behind Germanys energy mix being largely coal.

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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DonDeeHippy

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Re: Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones
Reply #5 - Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 2:04pm

They are also making many other mistakes, like using the flawed NEDC driving cycle, which is being phased out. They assume unrealistically optimistic numbers for diesel emissions, and unrealistically pessimistic numbers for electricity emissions.
One of the biggest mistakes they are making is that they are comparing the full production and lifecycle of an electric vehicle, including the emission from the electricity uses, against the production and lifecycle of a diesel car without accounting for all the energy used to produce the diesel and supply it to the cars.

This isn’t the first time this has happened. Many years ago a “study” was released claiming that a ~50mpg Prius was more polluting than a ~9mpg Hummer H2. That study relied on one of the same tricks as this one – it estimated that the Hummer would last 300,000+ miles, whereas the Prius would last a fraction of that. There were many other issues with the study, of course.
And let’s not forget the German auto industry’s recent experience with under-reporting diesel emissions, which resulted in thousands of deaths and billions in fines.

This study has already received widespread criticism in Norway with several factual errors scewing the results in a large way towards Diesel.
Among the bigger errors in the study are the following:
– Electric batteries in EVs have a considerable longer lifecycle than 10 years. None of the battery makers today have a 150.000km/10 year limit on their batteries. In addition the batteries can be reused for other purposes (e.g. powerwalls) after.
– Diesel consumption for the Mercedes C220D uses the old NEDC standard and not the newer more correct WLTP standard. Average consumption for the Mercedes C220D is about 42% higher based on consumer reports from Spritmonitor.de.

It's not just that. The German grid was at 523g per kWh in 2016, in 2018 its estimated at 486g per kWh. That's 486/523= 7% lower in 2 years or about 3.5% per year. Assuming this continues, the grid will be at about 392g per kWh in 2025 when EVs really become more of a real element in transportation. That's 392 * 0.162 = 63.6g of CO2 per km for a Model 3 type vehicle in terms of efficiency. I can't imagine that diesel can beat this even if car production is more energy intensive for EVs. Also, there was a study that was mentioned elsewhere which concluded that EVs result in at least 3% improvement to similar diesel cars even with 2016 German grid values.

the biggest problems with this study is that it doesn't break down how they arrived at either of the vehicle's C02 consumption, until we can get numbers it's a useless report

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lee

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Re: Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones
Reply #6 - Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 2:22pm

DonDeeHippy wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 2:04pm:

The German grid was at 523g per kWh in 2016, in 2018 its estimated at 486g per kWh. That's 486/523= 7% lower in 2 years or about 3.5% per year. Assuming this continues, the grid will be at about 392g per kWh in 2025 when EVs really become more of a real element in transportation.

"Franco-German alliance splinters over climate policy
Paris is leading a group of ambitious countries in Brussels as Germany gets cold feet.

By KALINA OROSCHAKOFF AND PAOLA TAMMA 3/22/19, 12:35 PM CET Updated 4/19/19, 1:09 AM CET
The revamped Franco-German alliance is fracturing thanks to the countries’ differing approaches to climate policy.

The rift between Paris and Berlin was evident ahead of a summit of EU leaders on Thursday and Friday where the bloc's long-term climate strategy is on the agenda, according to unpublished documents reviewed by POLITICO.

Climate policy is dividing countries, with some “vehemently opposed” to having any meaningful discussion on the topic at the summit, according to an EU diplomat.

France is spearheading a group of countries that want the EU to cut emissions to net zero by 2050 — meaning the bloc would absorb as much greenhouse gases as it emits. That’s seen as crucial in reaching the more ambitious goal of the 2015 Paris Agreement, which aims to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees.

But Germany, long at the forefront of pushing greener policies, is now getting cold feet thanks to the economic and political costs."

https://www.politico.eu/article/franco-german-alliance-splinters-over-climate-po...

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juliar Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 22966	Re: Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones Reply #7 - Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 2:53pm Of course they do as most of these unsafe piles of junk are spewing out pollution as they are recharged at Super Chargers being supplied by coal power stations. The Tesla exhaust is at the coal power station.
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Prime Minister for Canyons Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 26906 Canberra Gender:	Re: Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones Reply #8 - Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 2:58pm Trust juliar to change the subject as they become more desperate
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juliar Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 22966	Re: Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones Reply #9 - Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 3:02pm BH I sympathize with your inability to grasp tech stuff. But the TOPIC is about the huge pollution being caused by all electric cars as they load up the coal power stations.
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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones
Reply #10 - Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 3:08pm

juliar wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 3:02pm:

BH I sympathize with your inability to grasp tech stuff.

But the TOPIC is about the huge pollution being caused by all electric cars as they load up the coal power stations.

Yep, my multiple qualifications in science probably say different. I mean lets face it I don't have your ability in cutting and pasting from pop sci mags.

Juliar changing the subject in desperation again.

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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DonDeeHippy Gold Member Offline Cool Stuff Posts: 2782 Australia Gender:	Re: Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones Reply #11 - Apr 24^th, 2019 at 7:56am notice It's the same people that say C02 put in atmosphere from man made activities doesn't hurt the Climate are the same ones that use it to try and put down Renewable Energies....
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Sir lastnail

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Re: Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones
Reply #12 - Apr 24^th, 2019 at 10:03am

juliar wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 2:53pm:

Of course they do as most of these unsafe piles of junk are spewing out pollution as they are recharged at Super Chargers being supplied by coal power stations.

The Tesla exhaust is at the coal power station.

Every Joule of energy from a Tesla super charger is backed up by the same amount of energy from a renewable energy source. Can't say the same about oil can you socko ? Cheesy

LOL

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones
Reply #13 - Apr 24^th, 2019 at 10:06am

juliar wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2019 at 3:02pm:

BH I sympathize with your inability to grasp tech stuff.

But the TOPIC is about the huge pollution being caused by all electric cars as they load up the coal power stations.

And you are such an expert on copying and pasting from bullshit right wing websites run by Luddites Cheesy

LOL

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16399 Gender:	Re: Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones Reply #14 - Apr 24^th, 2019 at 12:13pm Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 24^th, 2019 at 10:06am: And you are such an expert on copying and pasting from bullshit right wing websites run by Luddites And yet you don't have an EV. According to you that makes YOU a Luddite.
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