Australian Politics Forum - Did Humans Evolve From Apes?

Bobby.

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Re: Did Humans Evolve From Apes?
Reply #45 - Dec 26^th, 2018 at 8:57am

freediver wrote on Dec 26^th, 2018 at 8:26am:

Bobby. wrote on Dec 26^th, 2018 at 7:59am:

freediver wrote on Dec 25^th, 2018 at 9:57pm:

The question you are really asking is, was the common ancestor an ape. It's a semantic question. The only sensible answer is yes. Otherwise you are claiming that different lineages evolved into apes multiple times. Whatever features we have in common that you use to define apes, the common ancestor must have had them.

What about a voice box?
Apes can't talk.

If you want to define apes that way, then we are not apes. It's an unusual definition in biology though.

Research:

https://www.sapiens.org/language/primate-speech/

We all know that parrots can talk. Some people may have even seen elephants, seals, or whales mimicking speech sounds. So why can’t our closest primate relatives speak like us? Our new research suggests they have the right vocal anatomy but not the brainpower to use it.

Scientists have been interested in understanding this phenomenon for centuries. Some have argued that nonhuman primates didn’t have the right-shaped body parts to make the same sounds as we do, and that human speech evolved after our speech organs changed. But comparative studies have shown that the form and function of the larynx and vocal tract is very similar across most primates species, including humans.

This suggests that the primate vocal tract is “speech ready” but that most species don’t have the neural control to make the complex sounds that comprise human speech. When reviewing the evidence in 1871, Charles Darwin wrote, “the brain has no doubt been far more important.”

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52045 At my desk.	Re: Did Humans Evolve From Apes? Reply #46 - Dec 26^th, 2018 at 8:59am Bobby I am aware that other apes can't talk. What is your point?
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Paul Onions Junior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 58	Re: Did Humans Evolve From Apes? Reply #47 - Dec 26^th, 2018 at 9:13am Interesting ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1261675/
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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 55130 Gender:	Re: Did Humans Evolve From Apes? Reply #48 - Dec 26^th, 2018 at 11:01am Yeah - well, something ain't quite right. Something's missing.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52045 At my desk.	Re: Did Humans Evolve From Apes? Reply #49 - Dec 26^th, 2018 at 11:41am a link?
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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 55130 Gender:	Re: Did Humans Evolve From Apes? Reply #50 - Dec 26^th, 2018 at 11:51am freediver wrote on Dec 26^th, 2018 at 11:41am: a link? Look. Stuff me with Xmas food, if I'm going to search the Internet looking for some missing link?
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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 116209 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Did Humans Evolve From Apes? Reply #51 - Dec 26^th, 2018 at 1:08pm freediver wrote on Dec 26^th, 2018 at 8:59am: Bobby I am aware that other apes can't talk. What is your point? Well it seems that apes do have a voice box - I was wrong to assume they didn't. They don't have the brain power to control it. That's strange in that birds with their tiny pea brains can talk.
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freediver

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Re: Did Humans Evolve From Apes?
Reply #52 - Dec 26^th, 2018 at 2:12pm

I don't think it's as simple as that. There are some physiological changes in our voice box, compared to other apes. That being said, most apes can make some variety of vocalisation. Birds can make a lot of noises, but most of it is little more complex in terms of intelligence than than pretty plumage, and serves the same purpose. Mimicry is not the same as communication.

Historians on the subject (eg Yaval Harari) think that the first (and only) biological revolution that created modern humans was the intelligence to live together in groups of more than about 50 individuals. It actually takes a lot of mental effort to keep track of your own relationship with 50 other people, and if you want to do well socially, you also have to keep track of the relationships between other individuals. If you think about it, everything about complex modern society boils down to this skill. No evolutionary changes (in humans) were needed to farm or industrialise. Other hominids such as neanderthal could probably speak as well as us, but lacked the ability to function in large tribes.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 116209 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Did Humans Evolve From Apes? Reply #53 - Dec 26^th, 2018 at 2:34pm Hi FD, I can't find Yuval Harari saying anything about the voice box. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/sep/11/sapiens-brief-history-humankind-yu... https://jamesclear.com/book-summaries/sapiens https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=468882620
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Jasin

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Re: Did Humans Evolve From Apes?
Reply #54 - Dec 26^th, 2018 at 6:37pm

Bobby. wrote on Dec 26^th, 2018 at 1:08pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 26^th, 2018 at 8:59am:

Bobby I am aware that other apes can't talk. What is your point?

Well it seems that apes do have a voice box -
I was wrong to assume they didn't.
They don't have the brain power to control it.

That's strange in that birds with their tiny pea brains can talk.

Yes. Another very good point Bobby.
Why 'can' Finches talk to each other, but Apes don't - even though they have a voicebox?

I'm starting to wonder if they don't 'ever' want to find the 'Missing Link' because to do so, it might show them something that they don't want to see?!

It might show every 'race' currently on this planet - will not inherit the future - that our branch, is also...

...a

DEAD END.

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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Jasin

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Re: Did Humans Evolve From Apes?
Reply #55 - Dec 26^th, 2018 at 6:42pm

freediver wrote on Dec 26^th, 2018 at 2:12pm:

I don't think it's as simple as that. There are some physiological changes in our voice box, compared to other apes. That being said, most apes can make some variety of vocalisation. Birds can make a lot of noises, but most of it is little more complex in terms of intelligence than than pretty plumage, and serves the same purpose. Mimicry is not the same as communication.

Historians on the subject (eg Yaval Harari) think that the first (and only) biological revolution that created modern humans was the intelligence to live together in groups of more than about 50 individuals. It actually takes a lot of mental effort to keep track of your own relationship with 50 other people, and if you want to do well socially, you also have to keep track of the relationships between other individuals. If you think about it, everything about complex modern society boils down to this skill. No evolutionary changes (in humans) were needed to farm or industrialise. Other hominids such as neanderthal could probably speak as well as us, but lacked the ability to function in large tribes.

So you put forth our 'success' as Sapiens over the other Species (Neanderthal, Denisovian, Africa X and various earlier Hominid species) based entirely on MASS of numbers.

Well then, I guess you will agree also that the World's Over-Population, let alone 'many' nations individually ( Wink

) are the reason for the state of the world today.
You sound like a fan of Alien 2 over the original First Movie. All - 'mass' numbers! Mass slaughter of colonisers, aliens, soldiers, etc.
So if you can only see back as far as 'Mass numbers' being a part of the Homo Sapien success - well, you've obviously missed the 'original' reason. Wink

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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Robot Senior Member Offline Conspirator Posts: 441 Engadine Maccas	Re: Did Humans Evolve From Apes? Reply #56 - Dec 26^th, 2018 at 11:29pm This thread is an indictment of science education in Australia.
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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 116209 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Did Humans Evolve From Apes? Reply #57 - Dec 27^th, 2018 at 6:29am Robot wrote on Dec 26^th, 2018 at 11:29pm: This thread is an indictment of science education in Australia. In what way?
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freediver

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Re: Did Humans Evolve From Apes?
Reply #58 - Dec 28^th, 2018 at 9:30am

Quote:

So you put forth our 'success' as Sapiens over the other Species (Neanderthal, Denisovian, Africa X and various earlier Hominid species) based entirely on MASS of numbers.

Not just me, but yes. Neanderthals were bigger, stronger, and probably even smarter than us. They were also the white ones, and we were the black Africans. We outbred them.

Quote:

Well then, I guess you will agree also that the World's Over-Population, let alone 'many' nations individually ( Wink) are the reason for the state of the world today.

Yes, if you are suggesting that people are responsible for what people are doing. Seems like a trivial point though.

Quote:

You sound like a fan of Alien 2 over the original First Movie. All - 'mass' numbers! Mass slaughter of colonisers, aliens, soldiers, etc.

It's just reality. I forget the details of the movie though.

Quote:

So if you can only see back as far as 'Mass numbers' being a part of the Homo Sapien success - well, you've obviously missed the 'original' reason.

It is not just part of our success, it is what distinguished us as a species. If you look back further, we are not there.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 89626 Proud Old White Australian Man Gender:	Re: Did Humans Evolve From Apes? Reply #59 - Dec 28^th, 2018 at 12:55pm Some evolved from jellyfish..............
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