Australian Politics Forum - ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments

Bam

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Re: ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments
Reply #15 - Dec 13^th, 2018 at 12:08pm

crocodile wrote on Dec 12^th, 2018 at 10:34pm:

Bam wrote on Dec 12^th, 2018 at 9:05pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 12^th, 2018 at 12:19pm:

There is only one way to overcome stagnant wages without causing inflation.

Productivity improvement.

Inflation devalues wage increases to effectively zero.

Australia is already a high-cost country and it is going backward economically.

Then why are businesses making healthy profits?

Don't be such a simpleton. Profits don't necessarily follow productivity. In any case corporate profits may have come on well in the last 2 years but that's on the back of a long period of stagnation. It isn't even back to trend yet. Laugh till you cry is absolutely correct. Wages follow productivity. They have fukk all to do with profit.

https://i2.wp.com/bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Aust...

Simpleton yourself. If workers weren't productive, businesses wouldn't be making healthy profits. It's axiomatic. The reason why the workers' share of business income is declining has nothing to do with productivity. It is the red tape imposed on workers that doesn't allow them to bargain for a better deal. Repealing all anti-strike legislation would be a good start.

Here is the chart that refutes your productivity argument.

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Laugh till you cry

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Re: ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments
Reply #16 - Dec 13^th, 2018 at 12:32pm

The chart above merely shows that increasing productivity reflects less hours worked for the same output while simultaneously reducing wages by the lower work hours.

Its a reflection of the changing work conditions and the transition to a gig economy pitting individual workers against each other. That will effectively reduce wages by reducing hours worked and increase productivity by reducing hours worked.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/featurearticlesbytitle/67AB5016DD143FA6C...

Quote:

... AVERAGE ACTUAL HOURS WORKED

Average actual hours worked per week in all jobs have generally decreased over the past 32 years, from approximately 35.5 hours in early-1978 to approximately 33 hours in 2010. Hours worked peaked in 1979, which roughly coincided with full-time employment peaking at around 86% of employed people (which occurred in January 1979). From this high, average actual weekly hours worked fell during the early-1980s economic downturn, driven by a sharp fall in the hours worked of full-time employed persons. Since then, hours worked have, in general, decreased: from 1984 to 2000, average actual weekly hours worked per employed person remained between 34 and 35 hours. Average actual weekly hours worked then trended down after 2000, falling below 34 hours. A rapid increase in hours worked occured between mid- and end-2007, just before the economic downturn of 2008-09. Since the economic downturn there have been further falls in average hours. ...

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Bam

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Re: ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments
Reply #17 - Dec 13^th, 2018 at 12:34pm

Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 13^th, 2018 at 12:32pm:

The chart above merely shows that increasing productivity reflects less hours worked for the same output while simultaneously reducing wages by the lower work hours.

Its a reflection of the changing work conditions and the transition to a gig economy pitting individual workers against each other. That will effectively reduce wages by reducing hours worked and increase productivity by reducing hours worked.

Link?

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Laugh till you cry Gold Member Offline Posts: 16619 In your happy place Gender:	Re: ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments Reply #18 - Dec 13^th, 2018 at 12:53pm GDP per hour worked. It is no coincidence that the countries with the lowest working hours per employee have the highest GDP per hour worked. http://time.com/4621185/worker-productivity-countries/
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miketrees

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Re: ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments
Reply #19 - Dec 13^th, 2018 at 1:17pm

There is only one way to overcome stagnant wages without causing inflation.

Productivity improvement.

Inflation devalues wage increases to effectively zero.

Australia is already a high-cost country and it is going backward economically.

I agree with that.

I think our productivity problems come from uneducated (arsehole)management.

I have seen some horrific managers in my travels, and the productivity under them is appalling

So I would make manager and owners liable for not following company policies,,, you know the types I mean.

Companies have the loveliest policies and procedures when you join up , only to find that no one follows them, and if you try to you get the sac.

A workplace with clear policies and procedures that were adhered to would be a fine thing.

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crocodile

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Re: ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments
Reply #20 - Dec 13^th, 2018 at 1:19pm

Bam wrote on Dec 13^th, 2018 at 12:08pm:

crocodile wrote on Dec 12^th, 2018 at 10:34pm:

Bam wrote on Dec 12^th, 2018 at 9:05pm:

Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 12^th, 2018 at 12:19pm:

There is only one way to overcome stagnant wages without causing inflation.

Productivity improvement.

Inflation devalues wage increases to effectively zero.

Australia is already a high-cost country and it is going backward economically.

Then why are businesses making healthy profits?

Don't be such a simpleton. Profits don't necessarily follow productivity. In any case corporate profits may have come on well in the last 2 years but that's on the back of a long period of stagnation. It isn't even back to trend yet. Laugh till you cry is absolutely correct. Wages follow productivity. They have fukk all to do with profit.

https://i2.wp.com/bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Aust...

Simpleton yourself. If workers weren't productive, businesses wouldn't be making healthy profits. It's axiomatic. The reason why the workers' share of business income is declining has nothing to do with productivity. It is the red tape imposed on workers that doesn't allow them to bargain for a better deal. Repealing all anti-strike legislation would be a good start.

Here is the chart that refutes your productivity argument.

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Australian-workers-f...

You've shown only labour productivity. Conveniently forgot the capital component. Try total factor productivity and then order a textbook from Santa.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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crocodile

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Re: ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments
Reply #21 - Dec 13^th, 2018 at 1:27pm

miketrees wrote on Dec 13^th, 2018 at 1:17pm:

There is only one way to overcome stagnant wages without causing inflation.

Productivity improvement.

Inflation devalues wage increases to effectively zero.

Australia is already a high-cost country and it is going backward economically.

I agree with that.

I think our productivity problems come from uneducated (arsehole)management.

I have seen some horrific managers in my travels, and the productivity under them is appalling

So I would make manager and owners liable for not following company policies,,, you know the types I mean.

Companies have the loveliest policies and procedures when you join up , only to find that no one follows them, and if you try to you get the sac.

A workplace with clear policies and procedures that were adhered to would be a fine thing.

Quite the opposite in fact. The reason is mostly that labour and capital productivity are moving in opposing directions to the point where one cancels the other. The result being stagnant wage growth

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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crocodile

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Re: ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments
Reply #22 - Dec 13^th, 2018 at 1:31pm

Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 13^th, 2018 at 12:53pm:

GDP per hour worked. It is no coincidence that the countries with the lowest working hours per employee have the highest GDP per hour worked.

http://time.com/4621185/worker-productivity-countries/

It's not quite that simple. The productivity of capital must be factored in as well. Without capital inputs, labour productivity will not grow at all. What is happening is that each increment of labour productivity gain is consuming ever increasing amounts of capital.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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cods Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 88048	Re: ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments Reply #23 - Dec 13^th, 2018 at 1:41pm I do hope Super Bill doesnt expect more from me when he ups my pension.... I think I have given all I have got...
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Laugh till you cry Gold Member Offline Posts: 16619 In your happy place Gender:	Re: ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments Reply #24 - Dec 13^th, 2018 at 1:57pm cods wrote on Dec 13^th, 2018 at 1:41pm: I do hope Super Bill doesnt expect more from me when he ups my pension.... I think I have given all I have got... When he bends you over it won't be your pension he is upping. Give till it hurts.
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miketrees

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Re: ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments
Reply #25 - Dec 13^th, 2018 at 2:29pm

Quite the opposite in fact. The reason is mostly that labour and capital productivity are moving in opposing directions to the point where one cancels the other. The result being stagnant wage growth

Not sure I understand the term capital productivity in this context.

Would capital productivity be a combination of a few things i.e. prices and worker productivity, and other costs.

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crocodile

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Re: ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments
Reply #26 - Dec 13^th, 2018 at 2:47pm

miketrees wrote on Dec 13^th, 2018 at 2:29pm:

Quite the opposite in fact. The reason is mostly that labour and capital productivity are moving in opposing directions to the point where one cancels the other. The result being stagnant wage growth

Not sure I understand the term capital productivity in this context.

Would capital productivity be a combination of a few things i.e. prices and worker productivity, and other costs.

Most of this is covered in any introductory textbook. Productivity is simply outputs divided by inputs. In the case of labour it the amount produced per hour worked. In the case of capital it is the amount produced per cost. Since labour productivity is the result of gains in technology it requires capital inputs in order to acquire the technology. The link to labour productivity is obvious. Bigger and better machines means each worker can produce more output in the same time. The decline in capital productivity simply shows that each increment of technological output is taking longer and longer before the capital outlay is returned.

The link to wages is not quite so intuitive. More technology requires a workforce with increased skills. The workforce today has more skills than a decade ago and those from a decade before again. They're not necessarily smarter but the skills base has climbed. It is in fact the gradual acquisition of increased skills that leads to wages growth over time.

Declining returns to capital are a major concern. When it reaches the point where business investment in technology stops then look out.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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cods

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Re: ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments
Reply #27 - Dec 13^th, 2018 at 3:20pm

Laugh till you cry wrote on Dec 13^th, 2018 at 1:57pm:

cods wrote on Dec 13^th, 2018 at 1:41pm:

I do hope Super Bill doesnt expect more from me

when he ups my pension....

I think I have given all I have got...

When he bends you over it won't be your pension he is upping.

Give till it hurts.

is that what you do pet?...

super BILL will be a SUPER HAPPY CHAPPY!>

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments
Reply #28 - Dec 13^th, 2018 at 3:35pm

I'd suggest that the mix of profit venture and employment is wrong to sustain the market here - especially when we are moving to a 'service' economy more and more.

Simply looking at 'productivity' and GDP for an answer in a service economy is something that has yet to be worked out, and all 'thinking' about these factors is lost in the past...

What is the productivity quotient of a call centre operator? Oh.. sorry.. we don't have those here....

A nurse? A banker or bank clerk? An insurance salesperson?

How is GDP per capita to be improved with high unemployment as a policy? DUH!

Just ringing some bells here..... come in, spinners....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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miketrees

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Re: ALP To Tackle Stagnant Wages And Underpayments
Reply #29 - Dec 13^th, 2018 at 4:52pm

OK
I think labour productivity is what is lowering capital productivity.

Labour productivity is lower than it could be because of poor management.

A disengaged ill equipped worker is still going to be working the same technology/ $ value equipment as a well supervised engaged worker.

Same capital, different outcomes.

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