Australian Politics Forum - Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election

aquascoot

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Re: Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election
Reply #45 - Nov 28^th, 2018 at 6:20am

Bam wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 8:42pm:

matty wrote on Nov 26^th, 2018 at 10:11pm:

Socialism by definition can never last, let alone prosper. You can’t expect people to work hard and just give it to those who don’t contribute a thing.

You're confusing socialism with capitalism. Tell me how the banks work again?

socialism only works within the family. you want to share the food and resources equally amongst the kids.
it doesnt scale.

big banks, big governments, centralised power also does not work.

the american banks were said to be "too big to fail". it should have been 'so big they must fail".

we see this all the time.
anything that is too big loses touch with the people on the ground.

a big hospital becomes run by bean counters.
big banks become corrupt and serve the people at the top.
the NBN is probably too big.
centrelink is probably too big.
there comes a disconnect because the middle management arent getting the feedback from the customers.
brexit is probably a sign the EU is too big, the people of birmingham didnt feel connected to the men in suits in brussels
its why small business is the way to go.
instant feedback and course correction.
the customer must be served or the business is screwed.
you must offer value or you perish.

we should always aim to have small business people operating with as little regulation as possible and with encouragement for innovation.

ebay is like that.....it is based on small businesses , little interference , trust in a stranger and instant feedback.
hence it generates wealth from nothing.
wikipedia is like that....multiple small people in contribution, trust and instant feedback .

imagine if you had kevin rudd design ebay or wikipedia....how cumbersome and expensive they would be Cheesy

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tickleandrose

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Re: Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election
Reply #46 - Nov 28^th, 2018 at 7:02am

Re aqua.

Your are contradicting yourself.

Our big banks are private enterprises, however, over the years, they have grew to such a state that they are 'too big' to fail. And hence, most of them thinks they are above the law, and asks for tax payer payouts when the going gets tough. Now, if you tried to regulate to restrict this growth, then you are not walkig the lines of captitalism or smaller government. Then you end up with a government that restricts evulotion from small business to big cooporates. How would you manage that without limiting the individual freedom?

What you are proposing is not democracy, or free market capitalism.

Small businesses are good, but only to an extend. For example, in capital cities, you will find its more viable to have smaller internet providers, who can do their own fiber to the premise. However, those business would be completely non viable in the rural settings, where there are less customers per meter of cable layed or serviced. And this goes on for many other services. How do you keep up with the services in the rural regions? Let them wither? Remember they are the heart land of conservative social politics, but not really conservative economic policies - think about that.

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aquascoot

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Re: Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election
Reply #47 - Nov 28^th, 2018 at 7:08am

the ACCC has power over this.

our banks are not as bad as american banks and we did well in the GFC thanks to peter costellos sensible regulation of the banks (some thanks to paul keating as well)

still , the ACCC could restrict the size of big business.

coles and woolies should not have been allowed into petrol retailing and hotel ownership.
smaller banks and credit unions could be given the same gaurantees as the big banks .

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tickleandrose

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Re: Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election
Reply #48 - Nov 28^th, 2018 at 7:19am

aquascoot wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 7:08am:

the ACCC has power over this.

our banks are not as bad as american banks and we did well in the GFC thanks to peter costellos sensible regulation of the banks (some thanks to paul keating as well)

still , the ACCC could restrict the size of big business.

coles and woolies should not have been allowed into petrol retailing and hotel ownership.
smaller banks and credit unions could be given the same gaurantees as the big banks .

In this case, then at your core, you are not really a right wing conservative. You are more of centre right wing. Whilst you believe in free enterprise, but its not free for all. Without regulation to limit the powers of big business, small business would never be able to compete with large internationals. But with good regulation they can.

Socialism does not always means to take from x to benefit y. It can also be about working together to benefit all. For example, by individuals, we will never be able to have a world class medical systems that backs everyone regardless of their wealth when they are sick. however, together we can. And no one country, not even the most right wing conservative of all, would think to privatize its own standing army into hands of small businesses.

Which means, there have to be a balance of the two: socialism vs capitalism in any form of governance.

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whiteknight Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8873 melbourne Gender:	Re: Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election Reply #49 - Nov 28^th, 2018 at 7:20am Did you get those weekend and public holiday penalty rates, fixed yet Mr Morrison?.
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Bam

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Re: Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election
Reply #50 - Nov 28^th, 2018 at 8:46am

aquascoot wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 6:20am:

Bam wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 8:42pm:

matty wrote on Nov 26^th, 2018 at 10:11pm:

Socialism by definition can never last, let alone prosper. You can’t expect people to work hard and just give it to those who don’t contribute a thing.

You're confusing socialism with capitalism. Tell me how the banks work again?

socialism only works within the family. you want to share the food and resources equally amongst the kids.
it doesnt scale.

Do you think capitalism scales? It doesn't. It just creates wealthier billionaires, hoarding the wealth generated by others for no benefit to anyone but themselves.

The wealthiest 20 people on the planet have as much wealth as the poorest 3,500,000,000 people. These wealthy don't work any harder. Capitalism just allows them to extort wealth from other people more efficiently.

Socialism is sustainable if it's implemented properly. Capitalism is not. All that hoarded wealth cannot accumulate forever. Unless it is recirculated by peaceful means such as high taxes or philanthropy, it will reach a point where it's recirculated by violence. There are no examples of capitalist societies that have ever lasted indefinitely. They always end by police state or violent revolution. Greed has a price and sooner or later that price must be paid.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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aquascoot

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Re: Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election
Reply #51 - Nov 28^th, 2018 at 9:16am

tickleandrose wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 7:19am:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 7:08am:

the ACCC has power over this.

our banks are not as bad as american banks and we did well in the GFC thanks to peter costellos sensible regulation of the banks (some thanks to paul keating as well)

still , the ACCC could restrict the size of big business.

coles and woolies should not have been allowed into petrol retailing and hotel ownership.
smaller banks and credit unions could be given the same gaurantees as the big banks .

In this case, then at your core, you are not really a right wing conservative. You are more of centre right wing. Whilst you believe in free enterprise, but its not free for all. Without regulation to limit the powers of big business, small business would never be able to compete with large internationals. But with good regulation they can.

Socialism does not always means to take from x to benefit y. It can also be about working together to benefit all. For example, by individuals, we will never be able to have a world class medical systems that backs everyone regardless of their wealth when they are sick. however, together we can. And no one country, not even the most right wing conservative of all, would think to privatize its own standing army into hands of small businesses.

Which means, there have to be a balance of the two: socialism vs capitalism in any form of governance.

i support medicare and think the unwell and infirm need to be treated with compassion.
a sick person is like an infant.
and we should all feel compassion for an infant.

i dont support feeling compassion for able bodied people with no health issue who think that they dont have to contribute.
if you are 20 and fit and healthy then you should be wanting to do work for the dole as it keeps you mentally tuned to offering value and giving before you recieve.
when i hear a fit 20 yo saying that they should be cared for by the state, then i see a taker and people need to get out of that mindset, not for the good of the economy but for their own benefit.
they have to embrace contribution and a failure to do so has implications for their future success.

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aquascoot

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Re: Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election
Reply #52 - Nov 28^th, 2018 at 9:28am

Bam wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 8:46am:

aquascoot wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 6:20am:

Bam wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 8:42pm:

matty wrote on Nov 26^th, 2018 at 10:11pm:

Socialism by definition can never last, let alone prosper. You can’t expect people to work hard and just give it to those who don’t contribute a thing.

You're confusing socialism with capitalism. Tell me how the banks work again?

socialism only works within the family. you want to share the food and resources equally amongst the kids.
it doesnt scale.

Do you think capitalism scales? It doesn't. It just creates wealthier billionaires, hoarding the wealth generated by others for no benefit to anyone but themselves.

The wealthiest 20 people on the planet have as much wealth as the poorest 3,500,000,000 people. These wealthy don't work any harder. Capitalism just allows them to extort wealth from other people more efficiently.

Socialism is sustainable if it's implemented properly. Capitalism is not. All that hoarded wealth cannot accumulate forever. Unless it is recirculated by peaceful means such as high taxes or philanthropy, it will reach a point where it's recirculated by violence. There are no examples of capitalist societies that have ever lasted indefinitely. They always end by police state or violent revolution. Greed has a price and sooner or later that price must be paid.

again thats the paretto effect. once you start getting rich, money flows to you.
your cup "runneth over".
i dont blame capitalism , it is a natural law.
its like monopoly....eventually one person has all the $$$$.
but monopoly would be boring if, every 10 minutes you just redistributed everything equally. people would get bored and stop playing.

so what to do about it?

we have to help those at the bottom of the heap to get a start and the state can do this.
a guy with an IQ of 70 is not going to make it nowadays.
he can be given responsibility to look after a park or one suburban block and keep it manicured.
now he is contributing.

what about at the top end?

well its hard to tell facebook or microsoft that their success has to be curtailed.

i dont know but we need to find innovative ways to get the big successful companies interested in civic responsibility . i think that is doable. shareholder value is one thing but the guys at the top are very smart and they are status driven.
you start giving them kudos for opening a free university or for doing something for the environment or doing something for the community and i think they would be on board.

see you see rich guys as greedy pigs.
i know rich people...most a re pretty calm, humbled by what they have built and want to contribute.
they just want kudos for it.
they want to contribute, not be taxed and hated on by the mediocre people .

make it easy for them to contribute and they will be up for it

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 147708 Gender:	Re: Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election Reply #53 - Nov 28^th, 2018 at 11:31am whiteknight wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 7:20am: Did you get those weekend and public holiday penalty rates, fixed yet Mr Morrison?. He's too busy trying to figure out how to fix the next federal election.
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whiteknight Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8873 melbourne Gender:	Re: Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election Reply #54 - Nov 28^th, 2018 at 12:07pm Get rid of work for the dole rubbish.
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Its time

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Re: Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election
Reply #55 - Nov 28^th, 2018 at 12:11pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 11:31am:

whiteknight wrote on Nov 28^th, 2018 at 7:20am:

Did you get those weekend and public holiday penalty rates, fixed yet Mr Morrison?. Sad

He's too busy trying to figure out how to fix the next federal election.

No poo, have a look at sitting days next year, what a disgrace

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matty

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Re: Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election
Reply #56 - Nov 30^th, 2018 at 12:32am

tickleandrose wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 8:13am:

matty wrote on Nov 26^th, 2018 at 10:09pm:

tickleandrose wrote on Nov 26^th, 2018 at 10:09am:

Re Matty

You will find that the current Labor and Liberal party are quiet centre wing already. Australia had always been a socialist democracy, and thats how the people expect it. We are heading towards an ageing population. A trickle down economy may work in a society post world wars development era, but less so in a ageing / services heavy era. As people age, not everyone is cashed up or self funded, even those who does, the longevity of life span in Australia means that they will become dependent on social welfare especially later in their lives when they are older and more frail. This is the reality we are facing. So expect more socialistic policies to come online.

Take for example, tax cuts for big business. Perhaps, middle aged skilled contractors would love this, as this may mean more work. For the typical age pensioners this means absolutely nothing when they are on waiting list for hip replacement for two years, or have their medicare rebates to doctors frozen for years.

And yet every time that the Liberal party has won from Ooposition, it has been by a leader from the right. And many battlers/blue collar voters (from areas like Penrith) preferred the Libs because of their social conservatism. I am an ATB right-wing conservative, but to me the social part is more important than fiscal. When you have a Coalition government committed to this ridiculous Paris agreement, when we emit well less than 1% of total emissions, especially when hardly any other countries still are, is it any wonder that social conservatives; those who actually comprise the Liberal party’s base, and do not believe in climate change, and are much more concerned with issues like immigration, have left and refuse to volunteer before and on Election Day?

But Matty the same argument can be had, that every time the labor patry has won from Opposition, it has been a leader from the left, and the many battler/blue collar voters (from areas like Penrith) preferred the labor because their social progressiveness, and 'faireness" (granted this is subjective). No, what it really is, its about election cycles. Labor was facing similar when Tony Abbott got elected. But it is far from because people's desire for social conservatism. When Abbott tried to shovel his right wing inspired first budget down people's throat, his popularity evaporated. There are still measures from that particular budget sitting in limbo.

What the middle class of Australia desires now, is not ultra right wing social conservatism. Rather its sensible, slight right of centre with sensible but not discriminatory immigration policies. People want more regulations to control the big bussiness and the banks as evidenced by the royal commisisions, at the same time, they want more flexiblity when it comes to small business.

As to the issue of climate change. Most middle class of Australia are highly educated and informed. And more and more people would want to do something about it, even if they are sketipcal about the science behind it. Even as a bussiness person, with no real background in science can tell, that burning animal remains for energy is the least efficient, least available form of energy in the entire universe. In order for humanity to progress, we need to turn to the renewables. And those with the foresight would recognize, that which ever global power is able to perfect this, that global power would become the dominant power on Earth for hundreds of years to come. It would be as civilization changing as the steam engines of industrial revolution, the driving force behind the Angolo sphere Empire of the 19th to 20th century. So its far from just about 'climate'.

When has Labor ever won from the left though, rose?

I don’t agree at all that people from Penrith are in favour of socially progressive policies. Granted, people have become so used to handouts that many were not in favour of the tough measures put in place in the first budget. Sure, in favour of flexibility for small businesses is a popular view, but I don’t think that many people are into demonising big business the way that Labor, the Greens and many of the moderates in the Liberals. Not sure exactly what you’re getting at with non discriminatory immigration, as you didn’t elaborate, but multiple polls have shown that most voters across-the-board want a halt on Muslim immigration, with a majority of Liberal voters, I think about 50/50 Labor voters and even a substantial minority of Green voters.

I would like to see a recent poll as to the belief in climate change; I believe that belief in it would have dramatically reduced since its ‘peak’ (for lack of a better word) between 2007-2012. However, the underlying point is that a majority of Australians would rather not being hit with an increase in their electricity bill, and not being able to turn on the heater, than they would with Australia trying to cut our emissions when it won’t make a scrap of difference to the atmosphere.

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BILL SHORTEN WILL NEVER BE PM!!!!

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matty

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Re: Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election
Reply #57 - Nov 30^th, 2018 at 12:35am

Bam wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 8:40pm:

matty wrote on Nov 26^th, 2018 at 10:09pm:

When you have a Coalition government committed to this ridiculous Paris agreement, when we emit well less than 1% of total emissions...

A ridiculous argument. Basically, we shouldn't do our share of lifting because we only do a small amount of lifting.

Someone surviving on the Newstart payment requires about 0.00001% of the Federal Budget. Using the exact same argument, we should abolish all obligations for the unemployed. The obligations cost $10 billion a year to administer so why keep them?

One vehicle is only about 0.00001% of all vehicles on Australian roads. Speed limits on roads are costly to administer, and what difference does it make if a particular driver keeps under 60 or drives at 65?

Or does everyone do their bit because it's the right thing to do?

Unequal analogy: that all adds up in the end; this doesn’t. Australia reducing its emissions won’t make a scrap of difference when other countries that emit far more than we do, are not doing the same.

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BILL SHORTEN WILL NEVER BE PM!!!!

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matty

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Re: Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election
Reply #58 - Nov 30^th, 2018 at 12:36am

Bam wrote on Nov 27^th, 2018 at 8:42pm:

matty wrote on Nov 26^th, 2018 at 10:11pm:

Socialism by definition can never last, let alone prosper. You can’t expect people to work hard and just give it to those who don’t contribute a thing.

You're confusing socialism with capitalism. Tell me how the banks work again?

You mean capitalism, that system of fairness where effort is rewarded and laziness is punished?

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BILL SHORTEN WILL NEVER BE PM!!!!

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Pedro Curevo

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Re: Why I want the Coalition to lose the next election
Reply #59 - Nov 30^th, 2018 at 6:12am

Every western society has socialism as a core including the US, it was the people who bailed he banks out not capitalism.

The fundamental problem today is that conservative politicians are too busy talking among themselves and their laissez faire free market ideology to know what the people are actually saying.... such as climate change as an eg: they still think that cliamate change is a hoax yet the Victorian election clearly shows the people don't, when the UN IPCC states that the planet is heading towards climate calamity the people are taking notice.

Also with banks and the electricity sector it was the coalition who took away the regulations and why the banks were gouging and the privatised energy companies were gold plating power poles with a nod from the LNP let her rip with profits until 2020.

Now they are scratching their nuts on how to win the next election when the people are not listening to the Neo-liberal spin anymore.....times up on dinsoaur economics and lack of action on climate change,.... the old lines why should Australia take action when the world isn't is falling on deaf ears...the world is acting, and those that fail to act will left wallowing in their own fossil fueled excrement.

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