Australian Politics Forum - New paper on Climate Models

DonDeeHippy

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Re: New paper on Climate Models
Reply #15 - May 19^th, 2018 at 9:02am

Grendel wrote on May 18^th, 2018 at 9:54am:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 8:34pm:

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 8:00pm:

Grendel wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 3:19pm:

Real World Data and not fudges... that seems a much better idea.

Bingo!

and no one would be talking about global warming, shutting down power stations and sending billions of dollars to an unelected world government... Roll Eyes

That would be true if co2 was the only emission from a power plant Wink

Yeah that water vapour that's bad stuff...

http://www.news.com.au/news/report-finds-us-china-and-the-eu-have-higher-standar...
The toxins produced by coal-fired power stations can have a deadly impact on those living nearby. People who live within 50km are about three to four times more likely to die a premature death as those living further away.
The report looked at four pollutants that are extremely harmful to health and have been linked to asthma, respiratory problems, stroke, angina, heart attack and cancer.
It found coal-fired power stations emitted more than 30 toxic substances and are the biggest sources of fine particles PM2.5, sulfur dioxide and oxides of nitrogen.
“The mercury limits for some NSW power stations are 666 times higher than the US limits. This is unacceptable,” the report said.
Yeah water vapour........ Wink

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: New paper on Climate Models Reply #16 - May 22^nd, 2018 at 9:30am You saying water vapour is not a product of coal fired power stations? You lot use photos of it often enough claiming its is pollution from them.
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Grendel

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Re: New paper on Climate Models
Reply #17 - May 22^nd, 2018 at 9:38am

Oh and yes there are other outputs...

But it depends on the amounts produced and the location of the station regarding its effects on people and the environment. I don't suggest you suck on an exhaust pipe or stand next to a grass-fire either.

As for power stations...

Quote:

One factor in improving air quality has been the pollution-control technologies used by coal-fired power plants. Today’s coal-fired electricity generating plants produce more power, with less emission of criteria pollutants, than ever before. According to the National Energy Technology Laboratory (NETL), a new pulverized coal plant (operating at lower, “subcritical” temperatures and pressures) reduces the emission of NOx by 86 percent, SO2 by 98 percent, and particulate matter (PM) by 99.8 percent, as compared with a similar plant having no pollution controls [xv]. Undoubtedly, air quality will continue to improve in the future because of improved technology.

Today, coal-fired electricity generation produces nearly half of the electricity generation in America and provides many jobs. For example, Prairie State Energy Campus, a 1,600-megawatt coal plant under construction in southern Illinois, provides 1,200 people with jobs in around-the-clock construction. Between its power plant, coal mine, and other assets, the campus will inject some $2.8 billion into the Illinois economy, creating 2,300 to 2,500 temporary construction jobs and 500 permanent positions, while emitting 80 percent less in pollutants than most existing power plants.[iv] When completed, the power plant will deliver electricity to 2.4 million homes in at least nine states.

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Grendel

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Re: New paper on Climate Models
Reply #18 - May 22^nd, 2018 at 9:42am

Grendel wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 9:38am:

Oh and yes there are other outputs...

But it depends on the amounts produced and the location of the station regarding its effects on people and the environment. I don't suggest you suck on an exhaust pipe or stand next to a grass-fire either.

As for power stations...

Quote:

One factor in improving air quality has been the pollution-control technologies used by coal-fired power plants. Today’s coal-fired electricity generating plants produce more power, with less emission of criteria pollutants, than ever before. According to the National Energy Technology Laboratory (NETL), a new pulverized coal plant (operating at lower, “subcritical” temperatures and pressures) reduces the emission of NOx by 86 percent, SO2 by 98 percent, and particulate matter (PM) by 99.8 percent, as compared with a similar plant having no pollution controls [xv]. Undoubtedly, air quality will continue to improve in the future because of improved technology.

Today, coal-fired electricity generation produces nearly half of the electricity generation in America and provides many jobs. For example, Prairie State Energy Campus, a 1,600-megawatt coal plant under construction in southern Illinois, provides 1,200 people with jobs in around-the-clock construction. Between its power plant, coal mine, and other assets, the campus will inject some $2.8 billion into the Illinois economy, creating 2,300 to 2,500 temporary construction jobs and 500 permanent positions, while emitting 80 percent less in pollutants than most existing power plants.[iv] When completed, the power plant will deliver electricity to 2.4 million homes in at least nine states.

Oh and BTW, brown coal vs black coal... the better quality coal the less emissions.

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DonDeeHippy

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Re: New paper on Climate Models
Reply #19 - May 22^nd, 2018 at 10:18am

Grendel wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 9:38am:

Oh and yes there are other outputs...

But it depends on the amounts produced and the location of the station regarding its effects on people and the environment. I don't suggest you suck on an exhaust pipe or stand next to a grass-fire either.

As for power stations...

Quote:

One factor in improving air quality has been the pollution-control technologies used by coal-fired power plants. Today’s coal-fired electricity generating plants produce more power, with less emission of criteria pollutants, than ever before. According to the National Energy Technology Laboratory (NETL), a new pulverized coal plant (operating at lower, “subcritical” temperatures and pressures) reduces the emission of NOx by 86 percent, SO2 by 98 percent, and particulate matter (PM) by 99.8 percent, as compared with a similar plant having no pollution controls [xv]. Undoubtedly, air quality will continue to improve in the future because of improved technology.

Today, coal-fired electricity generation produces nearly half of the electricity generation in America and provides many jobs. For example, Prairie State Energy Campus, a 1,600-megawatt coal plant under construction in southern Illinois, provides 1,200 people with jobs in around-the-clock construction. Between its power plant, coal mine, and other assets, the campus will inject some $2.8 billion into the Illinois economy, creating 2,300 to 2,500 temporary construction jobs and 500 permanent positions, while emitting 80 percent less in pollutants than most existing power plants.[iv] When completed, the power plant will deliver electricity to 2.4 million homes in at least nine states.

this is USA not Australia.... Cheesy

http://www.news.com.au/news/report-finds-us-china-and-the-eu-have-higher-standar...

Haha Implying coal power plants only emit Water vapour then trying to turn it around with some crap about me posting pictures of a cooling tower.... Really Cheesy

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« Last Edit: May 22^nd, 2018 at 10:26am by DonDeeHippy »

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Grendel

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Re: New paper on Climate Models
Reply #20 - May 22^nd, 2018 at 10:38am

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 10:18am:

Grendel wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 9:38am:

Oh and yes there are other outputs...

But it depends on the amounts produced and the location of the station regarding its effects on people and the environment. I don't suggest you suck on an exhaust pipe or stand next to a grass-fire either.

As for power stations...

Quote:

One factor in improving air quality has been the pollution-control technologies used by coal-fired power plants. Today’s coal-fired electricity generating plants produce more power, with less emission of criteria pollutants, than ever before. According to the National Energy Technology Laboratory (NETL), a new pulverized coal plant (operating at lower, “subcritical” temperatures and pressures) reduces the emission of NOx by 86 percent, SO2 by 98 percent, and particulate matter (PM) by 99.8 percent, as compared with a similar plant having no pollution controls [xv]. Undoubtedly, air quality will continue to improve in the future because of improved technology.

Today, coal-fired electricity generation produces nearly half of the electricity generation in America and provides many jobs. For example, Prairie State Energy Campus, a 1,600-megawatt coal plant under construction in southern Illinois, provides 1,200 people with jobs in around-the-clock construction. Between its power plant, coal mine, and other assets, the campus will inject some $2.8 billion into the Illinois economy, creating 2,300 to 2,500 temporary construction jobs and 500 permanent positions, while emitting 80 percent less in pollutants than most existing power plants.[iv] When completed, the power plant will deliver electricity to 2.4 million homes in at least nine states.

this is USA not Australia.... Cheesy

http://www.news.com.au/news/report-finds-us-china-and-the-eu-have-higher-standar...

Haha Implying coal power plants only emit Water vapour then trying to turn it around with some crap about me posting pictures of a cooling tower.... Really Cheesy

Really? I never would have guessed. Cheesy

I never implied your lie at all...
You made a statement, I commented on it.

Did I accuse you falsely of implying anything like you just did me? NO... Cheesy

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DonDeeHippy

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Re: New paper on Climate Models
Reply #21 - May 22^nd, 2018 at 11:51am

Grendel wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 10:38am:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 10:18am:

Grendel wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 9:38am:

Oh and yes there are other outputs...

But it depends on the amounts produced and the location of the station regarding its effects on people and the environment. I don't suggest you suck on an exhaust pipe or stand next to a grass-fire either.

As for power stations...

Quote:

One factor in improving air quality has been the pollution-control technologies used by coal-fired power plants. Today’s coal-fired electricity generating plants produce more power, with less emission of criteria pollutants, than ever before. According to the National Energy Technology Laboratory (NETL), a new pulverized coal plant (operating at lower, “subcritical” temperatures and pressures) reduces the emission of NOx by 86 percent, SO2 by 98 percent, and particulate matter (PM) by 99.8 percent, as compared with a similar plant having no pollution controls [xv]. Undoubtedly, air quality will continue to improve in the future because of improved technology.

Today, coal-fired electricity generation produces nearly half of the electricity generation in America and provides many jobs. For example, Prairie State Energy Campus, a 1,600-megawatt coal plant under construction in southern Illinois, provides 1,200 people with jobs in around-the-clock construction. Between its power plant, coal mine, and other assets, the campus will inject some $2.8 billion into the Illinois economy, creating 2,300 to 2,500 temporary construction jobs and 500 permanent positions, while emitting 80 percent less in pollutants than most existing power plants.[iv] When completed, the power plant will deliver electricity to 2.4 million homes in at least nine states.

this is USA not Australia.... Cheesy

http://www.news.com.au/news/report-finds-us-china-and-the-eu-have-higher-standar...

Haha Implying coal power plants only emit Water vapour then trying to turn it around with some crap about me posting pictures of a cooling tower.... Really Cheesy

Really? I never would have guessed. Cheesy

I never implied your lie at all...
You made a statement, I commented on it.

Did I accuse you falsely of implying anything like you just did me? NO... Cheesy

Grendel wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 9:30am:

You saying water vapour is not a product of coal fired power stations? Cheesy

You lot use photos of it often enough claiming its is pollution from them. Cheesy

show me where I posted a pic of a cooling tower ? Little on said it was pollution Tongue

Grendel wrote on May 18^th, 2018 at 9:54am:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 8:34pm:

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 8:00pm:

Grendel wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 3:19pm:

Real World Data and not fudges... that seems a much better idea.

Bingo!

and no one would be talking about global warming, shutting down power stations and sending billions of dollars to an unelected world government... Roll Eyes

That would be true if co2 was the only emission from a power plant Wink

Yeah that water vapour that's bad stuff...

reply 13
yes you only said water vapour Wink

it was mechanic that's in denial, I was wrong. Wink

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Prime Minister for Canyons Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 26906 Canberra Gender:	Re: New paper on Climate Models Reply #22 - May 22^nd, 2018 at 12:44pm Grendel wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 3:19pm: Real World Data and not fudges... that seems a much better idea. The problem with that is how can you then judge what to do to plan for the future, if you have no idea what the future holds.
Back to top	In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act. No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy) IP Logged

DonDeeHippy

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Re: New paper on Climate Models
Reply #23 - May 22^nd, 2018 at 1:00pm

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 12:44pm:

Grendel wrote on May 17^th, 2018 at 3:19pm:

Real World Data and not fudges... that seems a much better idea.

The problem with that is how can you then judge what to do to plan for the future, if you have no idea what the future holds.

Got me through High School Cheesy

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lee

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Re: New paper on Climate Models
Reply #24 - May 22^nd, 2018 at 2:10pm

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 10:18am:

his is USA not Australia.... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

http://www.news.com.au/news/report-finds-us-china-and-the-eu-have-higher-standar...

Show me where Beijing met or exceeded those exalted Chinese air standards.

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 1:00pm:

Got me through High School

But don't understand the difference between air quality standards and actual air quality.

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« Last Edit: May 22^nd, 2018 at 2:17pm by lee »

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DonDeeHippy

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Re: New paper on Climate Models
Reply #25 - May 23^rd, 2018 at 12:32pm

lee wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 2:10pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 10:18am:

his is USA not Australia.... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

http://www.news.com.au/news/report-finds-us-china-and-the-eu-have-higher-standar...

Show me where Beijing met or exceeded those exalted Chinese air standards.

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 22^nd, 2018 at 1:00pm:

Got me through High School

But don't understand the difference between air quality standards and actual air quality.

https://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/86000/86075/sedac_gis_2010_20...

what has this to do with carbon dioxide modelling lee.. please keep on topic so we can follow Wink

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21533 Gender:	Re: New paper on Climate Models Reply #26 - May 23^rd, 2018 at 12:45pm DonDeeHippy wrote on May 23^rd, 2018 at 12:32pm: what has this to do with carbon dioxide modelling lee.. please keep on topic so we can follow Yes. We know you are quite the hypocrite. No need to enhance your reputation.
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DonDeeHippy

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Re: New paper on Climate Models
Reply #27 - May 23^rd, 2018 at 1:54pm

lee wrote on May 23^rd, 2018 at 12:45pm:

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 23^rd, 2018 at 12:32pm:

what has this to do with carbon dioxide modelling lee.. please keep on topic so we can follow

Yes. We know you are quite the hypocrite. No need to enhance your reputation.

ok so does your paper says that doubling the C02 is only .85 degree increase instead of the normal thought of 1 degree increase. What is the difference between historical simulations and Historical methods.
They don't mention the time used but isn't TCR over a twenty year period and the formula for doubling CO2 is set in formula, are they saying it changes with location ? Wink

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« Last Edit: May 23^rd, 2018 at 2:12pm by DonDeeHippy »

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Grendel

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Re: New paper on Climate Models
Reply #28 - May 23^rd, 2018 at 3:09pm

Where did I accuse you personally of posting any images let alone one of a power station Dippy.
You need to stop lying about what I say and think eh.

That only shows how desperate you are to be right when clearly you are wrong. Otherwise there is no need to lie and you've done that to me several times now.

I suggest you stop it and stop wasting my time correcting your lies. Cheesy

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lee

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Re: New paper on Climate Models
Reply #29 - May 23^rd, 2018 at 3:22pm

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 23^rd, 2018 at 1:54pm:

What is the difference between historical simulations and Historical methods.

What do you regard as Historical? Climate models going back to 1880? Poor land data and even worse ocean data.

DonDeeHippy wrote on May 23^rd, 2018 at 1:54pm:

They don't mention the time used but isn't TCR over a twenty year period and the formula for doubling CO2 is set in formula, are they saying it changes with location ?

Oh good. You are starting to ask questions.

"For instance, the sensitivity only including the fast feedbacks (e.g. ignoring land ice and vegetation), or the sensitivity of a particular class of climate model (e.g. the ‘Charney sensitivity’), or the sensitivity of the whole system except the carbon cycle (the Earth System Sensitivity), or the transient sensitivity tied to a specific date or period of time (i.e. the Transient Climate Response (TCR) to 1% increasing CO2 after 70 years). As you might expect, these are all different and care needs to be taken to define terms before comparing things (there is a good discussion of the various definitions and their scope in the Palaeosens paper).

Each of these numbers is an ’emergent’ property of the climate system – i.e. something that is affected by many different processes and interactions, and isn’t simply derived just based on knowledge of a small-scale process. It is generally assumed that these are well-defined and single-valued properties of the system (and in current GCMs they clearly are), and while the paleo-climate record (for instance the glacial cycles) is supportive of this, it is not absolutely guaranteed. "

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2013/01/on-sensitivity-part-i/

It is any period you want, basically.

And of course you have to know all "that is affected by (the) many different processes and interactions"

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