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Pauline's latest pronouncements (Read 80503 times)
Brian Ross
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Re: Pauline's latest pronouncements
Reply #135 - Sep 29th, 2018 at 4:27pm
 
Myth 11: Aboriginal people live in the outback

Figures of the Australian Bureau of Statistics show that almost 80% of Aboriginal people live in major cities or regional Australia [2], yet most representations of “Aboriginal people” incorporate some form of remoteness or outback.

Such images refer to a minority - less than 14% of Aboriginal people live in very remote areas.

It is much more likely that you meet an Aboriginal person while you go shopping than when visiting places in remote Australia. You just need to see them.

Truth: Most Aboriginal people live in cities or rural areas.

Myth 12: All Aboriginal people have dark skin

Before invasion Aboriginal people had dark skin that protected them from the sun. Children of mixed descent were first the result of sexual abuse by white men on stations, missions and in foster homes.

Later mixed romantic relationships increased the numbers of Aboriginal people with fair skin.

This myth stipulates that you need to have dark skin to identify as Aboriginal. But it is up to the individual to make that decision, not you. If someone has Aboriginal grandparents and strongly identifies with this side of their culture they call themselves “Aboriginal”. And we should accept that.

Truth: Aboriginal people, like all of mankind, come in all different shades.

Aboriginality is a bit like tea: you can add milk and sugar but it is still
tea.
                                                                                      —First Contact, Episode One

Myth 13: Aboriginal people are only good at arts or sport

Many people accept that Aboriginal people are good at arts and sport. They know dot paintings and AFL or NRL players. But there is more.

Aboriginal people are also successful in science, law and medicine, among other areas.

For example, Dr John Moriarty is a successful businessman and chairman of the Jumbana Group. Bob Bellear was the first Aboriginal Australian judge and Dr Kelvin Kong is an accomplished surgeon. Neville Bonner became the first Aboriginal parliamentarian. Samantha Harris is a successful fashion model. Linda Jean Burney is an Australian politician and was a member of the NSW Legislative Assembly. Aboriginal feminist Celeste Liddle is also the National Indigenous Organiser for the National Tertiary Education Union. Aileen Moreton-Robinson is an academic, feminist, author and activist for Aboriginal rights.

There are hundreds of successful small Aboriginal businesses nobody knows about.

Truth: Aboriginal people can be successful in all areas in life, just like you and me.

Myth 14: There are no Aboriginal people left in Tasmania

The myth of Aboriginal extinction in Tasmania is grounded in the story of Truganini, a woman from Bruny Island, who died in 1876 after being the sole returnee from the Flinders Island mission where Tasmanian Aboriginals were sent for resettlement.

Assuming Tasmanian Aboriginal people died out because their last person passed away, however, ignores their descendants.

Aboriginal Tasmanians of mixed descent are in a constant struggle to remind the larger population of their existence, history and culture. While traditions and languages were severely affected by the loss of lives, Tasmanian Aboriginal people have adapted and continue to practice cultural traditions.

Truth: Tasmanian Aboriginal people are very much alive.

Myth 15: Violence against women and children is normal

It is true that there used to be physical punishment in traditional law, such as spearing, when people broke the law.

But physical or sexual violence, against women or children, never formed part of traditional cultural practices. In fact, more non-Aboriginal children are physically or sexually abused than Aboriginal
children.[6]

Violence is learnt and abusers have often been victims of abuse themselves. For them it is often a cry for help or the only way they know to reduce their pain.

The ‘Little Children Are Sacred’ report on abuse in the Northern Territory, released in June 2007, concludes: “Sexual abuse of children is not restricted to those of Aboriginal descent, nor committed only by those of Aboriginal descent. The phenomenon knows no racial, age or gender borders. It is a national and in-
ternational problem.”

Truth: Trauma leads to violence. It is a worldwide problem.

Myth 16: Native title can claim my backyard

This myth is the result of a massive media campaign after the 1992 Mabo decision.

In 1992, when the High Court handed down its Mabo decision, for the first time Australian law recognised Aboriginal people’s connection with, and rights over, land. This is known legally as native title.

The decision overturned the concept of an empty continent belonging to no-one (‘terra nullius’).

Following the Mabo verdict, opponents and media spread a lot of misinformation, declaring that ‘Australians were going to lose their backyards’. Sadly, despite dozens of Native Title decisions proving otherwise, this myth still lingers today.

Native title cannot affect existing property rights. Native title claimants can only assert their title over publicly owned land, called Crown land. Any house (including its backyard) is considered private property and therefore extinguishes native title.

Truth: Your backyard is safe. Native title only affects public land.
[cont'd]
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Re: Pauline's latest pronouncements
Reply #136 - Sep 29th, 2018 at 4:28pm
 
Myth 17: A lot of Aboriginal people drink alcohol

This myth is based on the high visibility of Aboriginal drinkers. But it is false. Let the statistics do the talking:

Across all age groups in the ‘low risk’ group fewer Aboriginal people drink alcohol than non-Aboriginal people. On average, 55% of the non-Indigenous people drink at low risk while only 36% Aboriginal people do.

In the ‘risky’ group proportions are about equal between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people.

This is also true for the ‘high risk’ group, except for people between 35 to 54 years of age. Here, almost twice as many Aboriginal people drink alcohol.

29% of Aboriginal Australians did not drink alcohol in the previous 12 months, almost double the rate of non-Aboriginal Australians. In fact, Aboriginal people are 1.4 times more likely to abstain from alcohol than non-Aboriginal people.

More than 43% of 16- to 17-year-old Australians drink to “get drunk”. 36% of adults in New South Wales do the same. And 20% of them admit they can’t stop drinking once they started.

No wonder that 80% of Australians believe the nation has a drinking problem.

Truth: Australia as a nation has a drinking problem. Fewer Aboriginal than non-Aboriginal people drink alcohol.

Myth 18: Aboriginal people are lazy

This is another persistent myth. About 33% of Australians aged 25 to 44 believe this is true, except in Western Australia where more than 60% believe that [3].

The Aboriginal unemployment rate is 3 times the national average. In South Australia, for example, the 2006 Population Census recorded an unemployment rate of 20.3% for Aboriginal people, compared to 7.5% for the state’s non-Aboriginal population.

These rates are higher not because Aboriginal people don’t want to work or learn, but because they encounter difficulties and discrimination. Other factors are education, training and skill levels, poorer health, limited market opportunities, and lower levels of job retention.

More and more Aboriginal youth want to go to university. Between 2001 and 2011 the number of Aboriginal students in higher education grew by 20%.

Truth: Aboriginal people want to learn and work but are hampered by discrimination.

Myth 19: Aboriginal people receive millions of dollars

It is easy to believe this myth especially with papers reporting millions and billions of dollars spent on Aboriginal politics.

There is surely no shortage of money: In 2013/14 the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet supported 150 Aboriginal programmes and activities with a total of $2.4 billion dollars. The total expenditure on Aboriginal affairs in 2013 was $25 billion.

The question is: Who received this money?

In 2011 the Australian Productivity Commission (the government’s independent research and advisory body) found the returns on this investment “dismally poor”, the Finance Department “disappointing at best and appalling at worst”.

Gerry Georgatos who writes for The Stringer showed that of the $25 billion much less than one billion dollars actually effectively reached Aboriginal people. And the Commonwealth Government confirmed that he was correct.

“Around a third of Government funding for Indigenous programs doesn’t even make it past the front doors of office buildings,” says the Chair of the Indigenous Advisory Council, Warren Mundine.

The government’s approach is “seriously flawed” because funds are allocated to too many different agencies with no single person or organisation responsible for improving outcomes.

NSW Aboriginal Affairs Minister, Victor Dominello, recounts a visit to a small town that he wouldn’t identify. He met about 20 of the town’s service providers.

‘‘In domestic violence, there were three or four of them doing exactly the same thing, but getting pools of money from different governments and different agencies within governments.

“And guess what? They all had a front office; they were all paying rent. There was all this inefficiency. This was for a population of 2,500.”

Truth: A lot of money is spent in Aboriginal affairs, but very little trickles through to where it is needed.

Myth 20: Aboriginal people get special treatment, financial benefits, and free cars

This myth stipulates that Aboriginal people get a range of benefits and privileges not available to non-Aboriginal people. Among the ‘free’ benefits Aboriginal people get according to the myth are cars, housing and tertiary education. Some even believe they receive “free home loans”. [7]

But Aboriginal people are subject to the same social security laws and entitled to no more (and no less) government sponsorship than any other Australian. There has never been a government program that distributed free houses or cars, and Aboriginal students have to pay for university like everyone else.

Bronwyn Carlson, Associate Professor of Indigenous Studies at the University of Wollongong, found that entrenched beliefs of Aboriginal people receiving ‘free’ benefits and goods, or of them rorting the public system, “has its roots in an ignorance of Indigenous experiences of dispossession, colonisation and ongo-
ing colonial violence”. [7]

It is incorrect to say that Aboriginal people receive undeserved special treatment. Tailored solutions are necessary to overcome the unique challenges that confront Aboriginal peoples.

Truth: The government has no freebies for anyone. Programmes need to be tailored to people – especially those facing hardship.
[cont'd]
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Re: Pauline's latest pronouncements
Reply #137 - Sep 29th, 2018 at 4:29pm
 
Myth 21: PM Kevin Rudd apologised “for the grief, mistreatment and suffering since colonisation”

This is a fairly recent myth propagated by journalists who didn’t do their homework and subsequently got their facts wrong.

For example, Tony Eastley, presenter of the ABC’s morning program AM, once said: “It is five years today since Kevin Rudd as prime minister made the landmark apology to Indigenous Australians for the grief,

mistreatment and suffering endured since European settlers landed two centuries ago…” [5]

Rudd didn’t apologise to all Aboriginal Australians. He only apologised to the Stolen Generations, a minority who had suffered from government policies which were used end of the 19th century to the 1970s—and not “since European settlers landed” in Australia.

Truth: Prime Minister Kevin Rudd apologised to a minority of Aboriginal Australians.

Myth 22: We need to raise the aspirations of Aboriginal children

This myth assumes that Aboriginal children are only aspiring to lower-paying jobs in trade, hospitality or sales. Thus we need to encourage them to ‘aspire high’ and see themselves work in top-paying jobs.

Not true. A large-scale longitudinal study by the University of Newcastle in 2017 found that “from an early age, Indigenous children share the same aspirations as non-Indigenous children. This includes the desire to
become doctors, teachers, vets and artists”. [8]

George, a case worker for Indigenous Tenanacy At Risk, often talks with the children of his clients. “The one thing I know is Aboriginal children are very aspirational, they tell me stories of their dreams. One wants to work as an archaeologist in Greece… A young [girl] told me how fascinated she was with the solar system, her ambition is to study astronomy and physics, perhaps work for NASA. Another youngster informed that she wants to work in the political and industrial arena. Firstly, she told me, as a worker’s advocate, then as a
parliamentarian.” [9]

So rather than trying to make Aboriginal children’s visions match that of their non-Aboriginal peers, we need to nurture the strong aspirations they already have in primary school.

Truth: Aboriginal children are as aspirational as their non-Aboriginal peers.

Myth 23: Aboriginal people didn’t use numbers beyond 3 or 4

Even anthropologists, linguists and other researchers get this wrong. According to the myth, Aboriginal people only had number words up to 3 or 4, used the word ‘hand’ for 5, or compounded larger numbers with words for smaller ones.

Truth is, it has been proven that Aboriginal languages have words for larger numbers and even systems for numbers that went on indefinitely based on 5. [10]

The Torres Strait Islanders, for example, had words for one hundred (‘mauru’) and one thousand (‘kaigasa’).

Truth: Aboriginal people’s mathematical skills go far beyond counting to five.

Footnotes

  View article sources (13)
'Beyond the myths', shareourpride.reconciliation.org.au/sections/beyond-the-myths/'Rebutting the Myths', Miromaa, http://www.miromaa.org.au/culture/rebuttingthemyths.html
'Mythbusters ', Reconciliation Australia, http://www.reconcile.org.au/home/get-involved/learning-tools/mythbusters
[1] 'A Punter's Guide To Not Getting Defensive About Adam Goodes' Truth Bombs', New Matilda 13/11/2014
[2] 'Estimates of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians, June 2011', Australian Bureau of Statistics,
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/3238.0.55.001 , retrieved 11/12/2014

[3] 'These six charts show the state of discrimination towards indigenous Australians', SMH 30/7/2014
[4] 'An Interview With Jenny Munro', Gaele Sobott, 25/1/2015, gaelesobott.wordpress.com/2015/01/25/an-interview-with-
jenny-munro/, retrieved 2/2/2015
[5] 'Sloppy Journalism Reinforces White Myths', The Tracker 14/2/2013, retrieved from
http://www.kooriweb.org/foley/essays/tracker/tracker20.html , 12/7/2015
[6] Productivity Commission Report: Overcoming Indigenous Disadvantage: Key Indicators 2014, p. 4.80
[7] 'Here's the truth about the 'free ride' that some Australians think Indigenous peoples get', SBS News, 7/12/2016
[8] 'Why many high-achieving Indigenous students are shunning university', The Conversation 27/6/2017
[9] George G, personal email, 21/9/17
[10] 'Australian Aboriginal and Islander mathematics', John Harris, 1987, AIATSIS Library,
http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/lbry/dig_prgm/e_access/serial/m0005975_a.pdf , retrieved 8/10/2017

Cite this article
An appropriate citation for this document is:

www.CreativeSpirits.info,
Aboriginal culture - - 23 myths you might believe about Aboriginal Australia, retrieved 8 October 2017

Creative Spirits acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the true custodians of the land in which we live and work.

© Creative Spirits, Jens Korff
Terms of use & copyright
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Re: Pauline's latest pronouncements
Reply #138 - Sep 30th, 2018 at 6:21pm
 
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Re: Pauline's latest pronouncements
Reply #139 - Sep 30th, 2018 at 6:32pm
 
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Re: Pauline's latest pronouncements
Reply #140 - Oct 3rd, 2018 at 4:46pm
 
Quote:
Pauline Hanson: The ABC’s Board “Had Consistently Failed” And “They Needed To Go”

One Nation leader, Pauline Hanson, has savaged the ABC’s outgoing managing director, Michelle Guthrie, saying she and the Board had “consistently failed” the public broadcaster’s “standards” and “they needed to go”.

Guthrie, of course, was spectacularly sacked last Monday, while the controversial Board member, Justin Milne, quit his post on Thursday.

Writing an opinion piece in today’s The Australian, Hanson said: “Michelle Guthrie and the board members of the ABC consistently failed the standards set out in section 8c. On that basis alone, they needed to go.

“Australia’s democracy needs informed citizens and that cannot happen when the personal political opinion of the ABC presenter is passed off as accurate and impartial news and information.” She then renewed her calls for the ABC and SBS to be merged.

Hanson has never been a fan of the ABC and has regularly called out the public broadcaster for apparent bias and has called for its budget to be slashed. Hanson refuses to give interviews to ABC journalists and has repeatedly demanded that the salaries of its on-air personalities be made public.

In her piece in today’s The Oz, Hanson said whoever replaced Guthrie as MD should be paid less than the prime minister. Guthrie was on an annual salary of close to $900,000, while the prime minister is paid closer to $500,000 a year.

“Australians are angry about excessive salaries and benefits being paid to the managing directors and board members of non-performing government-owned corporations and businesses such as the ABC,” Hanson writes.

She then took aim at apparent bias at the ABC: “The next task is to find board members committed to culling producers and presenters who cannot separate their own left-leaning political opinions from accurate and impartial news and information.”

Meanwhile, the prime minister Scott Morrison has used an interview on yesterday’s Insiders program to tell the ABC to put “a pretty ordinary” week behind it and “get back to work”.

“I think the ABC needs to stop talking about itself and get back to work,” Morrison said.

He added that he expected the ABC board under acting chairwoman Kirstin Ferguson to do better.

“Dr Ferguson needs to get on and settle the ship down to make sure they get back to doing what they should be doing in an independent and an unbiased way, to get the facts right, and to ensure they perform the duties the Australian people pay them to do,” he said.

“I expect the ABC board to do better. And if they don’t, well, they can expect a bit more attention from me.”

[Source]

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Re: Pauline's latest pronouncements
Reply #141 - Oct 3rd, 2018 at 4:47pm
 
Quote:
Pauline Hanson proposes pay cut for next ABC boss

Pauline Hanson has called for the ABC’s next managing director to be paid less than Scott Morrison as she launches a fresh attack in the wake of the crisis gripping the public broadcaster.

The One Nation leader, who controls two critical crossbench votes in the Senate, also backed a merger of the ABC and SBS after the Prime Minister last week ­refused to rule out such action.

Mr Morrison yesterday put the ABC board on notice, warning it could “expect a bit more attention” from him if it did not “do better” after former managing director Michelle Guthrie was sacked last Monday and chairman Justin Milne was forced to resign days later amid a furore over political interference in the broadcaster.

In her first comments since Ms Guthrie lost her job, Senator Hanson questioned why Ms Guthrie was paid $890,987 in the 2016-17 financial year when BBC director-general Tony Hall earned about $810,000 as of September 2017.

The ABC managing director is employed by the broadcaster’s board on a principal executive ­office classification band E, with a salary starting from $380,230.

“Like many Australians, I don’t understand how we can pay the managing director of the ABC more than the director-general of the BBC when the head of the BBC must manage licence fees and the sale of programs to fund a significantly larger and more complex organisation than our own national broadcaster,” Senator Hanson writes in today’s The Australian. “What the government needs to do now is merge the ABC and SBS and classify the head of the new public broadcaster as a PEO band D position with a maximum salary set by the Remuneration Tribunal which will be less than the Prime Minister’s salary of about $500,000.

“The next task is to find board members committed to culling producers and presenters who cannot separate their own left-leaning political opinions from accurate and impartial news and information.”

A person with a PEO band D classification can earn a salary of between $243,590 and $445,590, and a total remuneration package worth up to $610,370.

An ABC spokeswoman had no comment to make regarding ­Senator Hanson’s proposals.

Senator Hanson supported the government’s media reform package in exchange for a “competitive neutrality” inquiry into the ABC and SBS and legislation that would force the broadcasters to publish wages and allowances for “on-air talent” earning more than $200,000.

The inquiry’s findings into how the broadcasters compete with the private sector is due to be handed to the government this week while the wages legislation has been stuck in the Senate since December.

Mr Morrison urged the ABC’s acting chair Kirstin Ferguson to “settle the ship” as he denied former prime minister Malcolm Turnbull had given a “job to a mate” by appointing Mr Milne — one of his friends and ex-business associates — as chairman.

Mr Milne came under fire last week following reports he had asked Ms Guthrie to “get rid” of ABC chief economics correspondent Emma Alberici after Mr Turnbull complained about an ­article she had written on company tax. “(The ABC) pulled it down, they ripped it down ­because it was riddled with ­errors,” Mr Morrison said.

“I raised concerns about that article too. And the news team dealt with it and I was satisfied with the response. And that’s where it ended. Now, I can’t begin to imagine what was in the chairman’s mind, but the chairman is no longer there. And I expect the ABC board to do better. And if they don’t, well they can expect a bit more attention from me.”

[Source]

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Re: Pauline's latest pronouncements
Reply #142 - Oct 3rd, 2018 at 4:48pm
 
Quote:
Pauline Hanson demands a ‘please explain’ on Paris Agreement

One Nation leader Pauline Hanson has called on Scott Morrison to withdraw Australia from the Paris Agreement on climate change or “please explain” why the government would not pull out.

Conservative Coalition MPs led by Tony Abbott, who signed Australia up to the deal when he was prime minister, and Craig Kelly, chair of the government’s backbench energy committee, have been pushing for an exit from the agreement but the Prime Minister has refused to bow to pressure.

Under the agreement, Australia has pledged to reduce emissions to 26-28 per cent on 2005 levels by 2030.

“Often people will speak of the voluntary or supposedly non-binding nature of this deal,” Senator Hanson writes in a letter to Mr Morrison.

“Personally, I am not familiar with too many non-binding agreements that come with international debt collectors and a $400 million dollar price tag, a price tag that only looks set to grow. I don’t recall any government telling the Australian people that signing the Paris Climate Agreement would eventually lead to organisations like the Global Climate Fund acting like standover men, knocking at our door, telling us to pay up, or else.”

Senator Hanson was referring to the Green Climate Fund, which was a critical part of the Paris Agreement and received $200m from Australia between 2015 and 2018.

Josh Frydenberg confirmed to The Weekend Australian the government would not increase its commitment to the fund.

Mr Morrison has argued the Paris Agreement will not “change electricity prices one jot” but withdrawing from it could jeopardise key relationships with neighbouring countries in the Pacific and undermine Australia’s national security.

“This is the number one issue of our Pacific neighbours, our strategic partners, our strategic security partners,” he told Sky News last month.

“There are a lot of influences in the southwest Pacific and I’m not going to compromise Australia’s national security by walking away from a commitment that was made a number of years ago to that target. It’s been there for the last four years or three years, just over three years.”

Senator Hanson wrote: “I am writing today to ask you explicitly, please withdraw Australia from the United Nations Paris Climate Agreement. I am also asking you to commit to ending the large contributions of Australian taxpayers’ money to international organisations like Global Climate Fund.

“If you cannot agree to support One Nation in these endeavours then I and many other concerned Australians, would appreciate it if you could please explain why.”

Emissions for the year to March 2018 increased 1.3 per cent, driven largely by LNG production for export, according to the latest national greenhouse gas inventory.

They were 1.9 per cent below emissions in 2000 and 11.2 per cent below emissions in 2005.

Mr Morrison has insisted Australia will reach its target under the Paris Agreement “in a canter”.

[Source]

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Brian Ross
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Re: Pauline's latest pronouncements
Reply #143 - Oct 10th, 2018 at 3:00pm
 
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Re: Pauline's latest pronouncements
Reply #144 - Oct 12th, 2018 at 1:12pm
 
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Re: Pauline's latest pronouncements
Reply #145 - Oct 12th, 2018 at 2:29pm
 
We need more Pauline's, to have only one to represent the vast majority on immigration is bordering on criminal.
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Re: Pauline's latest pronouncements
Reply #146 - Oct 12th, 2018 at 2:35pm
 
Johnnie wrote on Oct 12th, 2018 at 2:29pm:
We need more Pauline's, to have only one to represent the vast majority on immigration is bordering on criminal.


We certainly don't need any more apostrophes.

Oh, and speaking of 'criminal' ...


...
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Re: Pauline's latest pronouncements
Reply #147 - Oct 12th, 2018 at 2:49pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 12th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
Johnnie wrote on Oct 12th, 2018 at 2:29pm:
We need more Pauline's, to have only one to represent the vast majority on immigration is bordering on criminal.


We certainly don't need any more apostrophes.

Oh, and speaking of 'criminal' ...


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/19/11/3668495300000578-3697186-A_mug_sho...

Pauline is great, without her you anti Australian, in fact anti western lot would get a clear run to destroy civilization for no good reason, you can see the fight back and you shrivel.
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Re: Pauline's latest pronouncements
Reply #148 - Oct 12th, 2018 at 2:52pm
 
Johnnie wrote on Oct 12th, 2018 at 2:29pm:
We need more Pauline's, to have only one to represent the vast majority on immigration is bordering on criminal.


Pauline's problem is that she is a crazy, ignorant, silly woman who believes that Racism is a valid criteria on which to judge a person's worth.   She would be shocked, I do not doubt, if  Genetics were explained to her and she understand that all humans share the same genes and are descended from Africans.   She would be shocked and dismayed to learn that the Muslims and Africans and Asians who she rails against are actually her sisters and brothers.  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: Pauline's latest pronouncements
Reply #149 - Oct 12th, 2018 at 2:53pm
 
Johnnie wrote on Oct 12th, 2018 at 2:49pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 12th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
Johnnie wrote on Oct 12th, 2018 at 2:29pm:
We need more Pauline's, to have only one to represent the vast majority on immigration is bordering on criminal.


We certainly don't need any more apostrophes.

Oh, and speaking of 'criminal' ...


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/19/11/3668495300000578-3697186-A_mug_sho...

Pauline is great, without her you anti Australian, in fact anti western lot would get a clear run to destroy civilization for no good reason, you can see the fight back and you shrivel.


Mmm, I see some trolling there.  Tsk, tsk, how is actually upholding the values that Western Civilisation created - equality, etc., destroying it?  Or are you suggesting that the lessons of the Enlightenment should be ignored?  Mmmm?    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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