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Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke (Read 15675 times)
Sir lastnail
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Re: Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke
Reply #90 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 1:43pm
 
juliar wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 11:42am:
To clarify - a fuse blows because there is too much current flowing thru it.

The fuse size is set to ensure the current flowing thru it doesn't cause a serious voltage drop at the appliance end.

The max current is set by the size of the supply and the connecting cables.

So if the current is below max then the fuse will not blow and the supply can handle it.

If the current rises above the max current the supply can handle then the fuse trips to protect the supply which is unable to supply that amount of current.

So it is pretty obvious that the supply was too small to supply the current during the heat wave to that blackout area otherwise the fuse would not have blown.

As far as the fuse is concerned it is interested ONLY in the current flowing thru it and whether the current is lagging, in phase, or leading the voltage is of no interest to the fuse.

A lagging current is a nuisance as it increases the load on the supply as the actual current flowing becomes the vector sum of the in phase and out of phase currents. Capacitive loads are sometimes used to pull the power factor back towards unity to reduce the current load on the supply.

The real situation is more complex as the supply is 3 phase so the problems are multiplied by 3 at least.

The further complication is the private operator who made have under designed the cables.

As Hazelwood Primary Power was a huge energy source that could have handled the load with one hand tied behind its back then its removal must leave the Vic power network much more vulnerable particularly as it has to supply SA as well when SA's shoddy Secondary Power network falls over.

So it is plausible Vic may be running short on Primary Power coal generating capacity.


SO everytime there is a blackout now the rightards automatically want to blame renewables for it Cheesy LOL
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Re: Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke
Reply #91 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 1:47pm
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 1:43pm:
juliar wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 11:42am:
To clarify - a fuse blows because there is too much current flowing thru it.

The fuse size is set to ensure the current flowing thru it doesn't cause a serious voltage drop at the appliance end.

The max current is set by the size of the supply and the connecting cables.

So if the current is below max then the fuse will not blow and the supply can handle it.

If the current rises above the max current the supply can handle then the fuse trips to protect the supply which is unable to supply that amount of current.

So it is pretty obvious that the supply was too small to supply the current during the heat wave to that blackout area otherwise the fuse would not have blown.

As far as the fuse is concerned it is interested ONLY in the current flowing thru it and whether the current is lagging, in phase, or leading the voltage is of no interest to the fuse.

A lagging current is a nuisance as it increases the load on the supply as the actual current flowing becomes the vector sum of the in phase and out of phase currents. Capacitive loads are sometimes used to pull the power factor back towards unity to reduce the current load on the supply.

The real situation is more complex as the supply is 3 phase so the problems are multiplied by 3 at least.

The further complication is the private operator who made have under designed the cables.

As Hazelwood Primary Power was a huge energy source that could have handled the load with one hand tied behind its back then its removal must leave the Vic power network much more vulnerable particularly as it has to supply SA as well when SA's shoddy Secondary Power network falls over.

So it is plausible Vic may be running short on Primary Power coal generating capacity.


SO everytime there is a blackout now the rightards automatically want to blame renewables for it Cheesy LOL


Sure do  Grin power has been going out long before the days of renewables
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lee
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Re: Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke
Reply #92 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 2:07pm
 
Its time wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 1:47pm:
Sure do  Grin power has been going out long before the days of renewables



But the netwoorks were gold-plated according to the Australian Energy Reguator. Not that the networks were pocketing the money; but actually gold=plating.

That means it shouldn't have occurred. Wink
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Sir lastnail
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Re: Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke
Reply #93 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 2:39pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 2:07pm:
Its time wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 1:47pm:
Sure do  Grin power has been going out long before the days of renewables



But the netwoorks were gold-plated according to the Australian Energy Reguator. Not that the networks were pocketing the money; but actually gold=plating.

That means it shouldn't have occurred. Wink


that's bullshit. i walk past at least one power pole that is on life support. One of them looks like a tooth pick ready to split in half and kill someone any time. hardly call that gold plating ! A place I lived once there was a power pole outside it had one of its 11kv wires come a drift and hit the ground and the noise was truly frightening. Anyone standing there or driving would have been toast Sad Another power pole was on so much of a bad angle and had a bend in it, it took them years to come and replace it Sad The only thing that is being gold plated is their bank accounts !!
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Re: Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke
Reply #94 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 2:50pm
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 2:39pm:
that's bullshit. i walk past at least one power pole that is on life support. One of them looks like a tooth pick ready to split in half and kill someone any time. hardly call that gold plating ! A place I lived once there was a power pole outside it had one of its 11kv wires come a drift and hit the ground and the noise was truly frightening. Anyone standing there or driving would have been toast Sad Another power pole was on so much of a bad angle and had a bend in it, it took them years to come and replace it Sad The only thing that is being gold plated is their bank accounts !!
Posted by: lee  Mark & Quote Quote      



"One party is the Australian Energy Regulator, which ruled that networks were exploiting their monopoly status and charging billions of dollars more than was necessary by over-investing in (or “gold-plating”) their networks and passing the costs on to consumers."

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/may/26/gold-plating-nsws-skewed-...

hey Blame the AER not me for what they say. I have no input. Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Re: Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke
Reply #95 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 4:12pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 2:50pm:
Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 2:39pm:
that's bullshit. i walk past at least one power pole that is on life support. One of them looks like a tooth pick ready to split in half and kill someone any time. hardly call that gold plating ! A place I lived once there was a power pole outside it had one of its 11kv wires come a drift and hit the ground and the noise was truly frightening. Anyone standing there or driving would have been toast Sad Another power pole was on so much of a bad angle and had a bend in it, it took them years to come and replace it Sad The only thing that is being gold plated is their bank accounts !!
Posted by: lee  Mark & Quote Quote      



"One party is the Australian Energy Regulator, which ruled that networks were exploiting their monopoly status and charging billions of dollars more than was necessary by over-investing in (or “gold-plating”) their networks and passing the costs on to consumers."

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/may/26/gold-plating-nsws-skewed-...

hey Blame the AER not me for what they say. I have no input. Grin Grin Grin Grin


I don't give a sh.te what they say. gold plating the network is a myth. They only fix up stuff after it has failed !!

You rarely see them do preventative maintenance like they did when it was government run.
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Re: Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke
Reply #96 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 5:46pm
 
Sir lastnail wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 2:39pm:
lee wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 2:07pm:
Its time wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 1:47pm:
Sure do  Grin power has been going out long before the days of renewables



But the netwoorks were gold-plated according to the Australian Energy Reguator. Not that the networks were pocketing the money; but actually gold=plating.

That means it shouldn't have occurred. Wink


that's bullshit. i walk past at least one power pole that is on life support. One of them looks like a tooth pick ready to split in half and kill someone any time. hardly call that gold plating ! A place I lived once there was a power pole outside it had one of its 11kv wires come a drift and hit the ground and the noise was truly frightening. Anyone standing there or driving would have been toast Sad Another power pole was on so much of a bad angle and had a bend in it, it took them years to come and replace it Sad The only thing that is being gold plated is their bank accounts !!



That's right Nial,
the private companies are running the system into the ground
while lining their pockets with our cash.
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juliar
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Re: Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke
Reply #97 - Feb 1st, 2018 at 5:48pm
 
The workings of the muddled minds of LW and LostSnail are truly wonders to behold. They could be brothers!!!!

How can two "people" know SO little and be SO wrong all the time ?

Are they examples of the FABIAN SOCIALISTS dumbing down of Australia ?


By the way LW where is your brother Mr Smith these days ?



And how electric heaps usually end up before they are dropped in the trash can.

...


And there is even a tale of woe about the Volt that shot its bolt

http://www.wind-works.org/cms/index.php?id=84&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=4911&cHash=...


Now watch LostSnail's muddled mind spin in wild confusion.
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juliar
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Re: Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke
Reply #98 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 8:47am
 
The vile Extremist Activist Greeny Conspirators HATE Australia campaign is progressing nicely with SA on the brink of collapse and Victoria following them down the plug hole.

The Greeny traitors realized that industry in Australia could be closed down by getting rid of the cheap coal power which make the Australian industries unprofitable.

The cost of power heads skywards once the taxpayer funded renewable rubbish appears because the power is generated TWICE.





Mystery: Australian electricity costs rise six times faster than wages – up another 12%
anuary 31st, 2018

More bad luck for the renewables industry. Despite providing free energy from the sun and wind, electricity prices keep rising relentlessly, shockingly fast. Even doubling in wholesale costs in Sth Australia and Victoria.

It was supposed to be cheap to collect low-level-energy across hundreds of thousands of square kms. Who knew that subsidized, unreliable energy would induce volatile pricing, allow the players to game the system, create obscene spikes, drive out the cheapest providers, require expensive battery storage, more frequency control, more maintenance, just as much back up supply, $400 million dollars worth of extra diesel generators (and the rest) and extra long transmission lines? Who knew? — Probably thousands of engineers.

Spot the pattern? Every other nation with lots of renewables has expensive electricity and our forward market says there’s more price rises coming.

Australian electricity prices rising six times faster than wages are growing
Sydney Morning Herald

Electricity prices have jumped by six times the rate of the average pay rise, new figures reveal, as family wallets are increasingly squeezed by essential services such as education, utilities and fuel.

The most significant price rises were electricity, up 12.4%, fuel up 10.4%, domestic holiday travel up 6.3% and fruit up 9.3%.

...
Australian Electricity prices, CPI, Graph.  Consumer Price Index

If you think our economy is flaming out now, wait til we reach the 23% RET target, and pay for the $1 billion interconnectors and the $4 billion extra hydro storage that we didn’t need when we had enough coal power. Then, after we reach the bottom, we’ll have to pay more to build new USC coal baseload, just to keep up with Indonesia, because we were too frightened to upgrade the old cheap plants; and it’s too frightening for any investors to do it for us.

High energy prices make everything else more expensive too. How much of the rise in hospital services, education, and beer is due to the higher costs of energy? Last week Victorian hospitals couldn’t even afford to keep all their lights on. The only thing that high energy prices don’t push upwards, is wages.

Most of the rises were in states that blow up or disassemble their coal plants
Wholesale prices double in a year in SA and Victoria (paywalled) Samantha Hutchinson and Michael Owen, The Australian

...
Prices, Electricity, wholesale, Graph, Australia, rises in 2017.

Average wholesale energy prices in Victoria and South Australia have more than doubled since this time last year, as experts warn that blackouts and supply issues are likely to increase as state governments chase ­aggressive ­renewable energy ­targets.

The mass outages [last weekend] affected more than 60,000 residents, some of whom were cut off for more than 28 hours.

Grattan Institute energy ­director Tony Wood said Sunday’s and Monday’s blackouts and high pricing showed that the state had botched its energy transition program by allowing baseload power sources — such as the Hazelwood power station — to be replaced by renewables, which delivered intermittent power.

The Victorian State Premier blames privatization (can someone tell him about Texas?)
In Victoria, Mr Andrews blamed the outages on the Coalition’s decision to privatise the state’s energy assets in the 1990s. “Fact is, there was more than enough power being generated to meet the demand yesterday — but the private companies and their distribution systems failed yet again,” he said on Twitter.



The SA government thinks SA electricity is cheap:
SA Energy Minister Tom Koutsantonis said wholesale power prices were “notoriously volatile”. “Since August, wholesale power prices in South Australia have been consistently cheaper than Victoria, and in September and October, SA had the cheapest wholesale prices of mainland states in the National Electricity Market,” he said.



In fairyland people only need electricity in months starting with O and S. Can someone remind him that a couple of years ago, in 2015, every state had cheaper wholesale electricity. The wholesale price in SA in 2015 was $41/MWh. By 2017 it was the “cheapest in the nation” at $69/MWh. Laugh til you cry.

Odd 2018 CPI trivia: Three of the four fastest rising items are energy: energy for our homes and businesses, energy for human bodies, energy for cars. Is that a message there?

– Nothing that 5 or 10 nuclear plants and a few new gas wells can’t fix.


http://joannenova.com.au/2018/01/mystery-australian-electricity-costs-rise-six-t...
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crocodile
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Re: Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke
Reply #99 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 9:54pm
 
juliar wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 11:42am:
To clarify - a fuse blows because there is too much current flowing thru it.

The fuse size is set to ensure the current flowing thru it doesn't cause a serious voltage drop at the appliance end.

The max current is set by the size of the supply and the connecting cables.

So if the current is below max then the fuse will not blow and the supply can handle it.

If the current rises above the max current the supply can handle then the fuse trips to protect the supply which is unable to supply that amount of current.

So it is pretty obvious that the supply was too small to supply the current during the heat wave to that blackout area otherwise the fuse would not have blown.

As far as the fuse is concerned it is interested ONLY in the current flowing thru it and whether the current is lagging, in phase, or leading the voltage is of no interest to the fuse.

A lagging current is a nuisance as it increases the load on the supply as the actual current flowing becomes the vector sum of the in phase and out of phase currents. Capacitive loads are sometimes used to pull the power factor back towards unity to reduce the current load on the supply.

The real situation is more complex as the supply is 3 phase so the problems are multiplied by 3 at least.

The further complication is the private operator who made have under designed the cables.

As Hazelwood Primary Power was a huge energy source that could have handled the load with one hand tied behind its back then its removal must leave the Vic power network much more vulnerable particularly as it has to supply SA as well when SA's shoddy Secondary Power network falls over.

So it is plausible Vic may be running short on Primary Power coal generating capacity.


What a load of horseshit. You have no idea at all. Everybody already knows. Good for a laugh though.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Re: Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke
Reply #100 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 10:15pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 1st, 2018 at 11:14am:
Sorry for the late reply. I missed this.

crocodile wrote on Jan 30th, 2018 at 9:06pm:
The vast majority of these appliances use induction motors. These motors will draw most current until the rotor achieves synchronous speed. At low voltage synchronous speed may not be reached and excess current will prevail. All of these motors however employ thermal overload protection as outlined in Australian standard AS 60034. It is unlikely that slow motors caused the blackouts.

The reality is as already pointed out is that the load demand exceeded the maximum allowed by the distribution network and the breakers tripped as a result.

Point the finger at the owners of the infrastructure who've had over twenty years to bring it up to scratch.


You missed out on that.

I wasn't pointing the finger at anyone. The response to stunspore was in relation to his scepticism of possible low voltage causing over current conditions.

Also what you have to factor in is that transmission lines are not solely a resistive load, but also an inductive load.

Thermal overloads. I doubt they would all trip at once.

Once again; I didn't say that an overcurrent condition was the cause. Wink


Sorry, I think I've been misunderstood. I'm just pointing out that under a low voltage scenario it is the fact that the motors can't reach there design speed that causes the large current rather than just because they are an inductive load. Motor current increases with greater variation between the armature speed and synchronous speed. Look at the torque - slip curve to see what I mean.

...
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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Re: Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke
Reply #101 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 10:28pm
 
You know the coalition liars are going to pretend croc's post don't exist. but thanks for enlightening those who are interested in the truth.
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Re: Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke
Reply #102 - Feb 2nd, 2018 at 10:53pm
 
stunspore wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 10:28pm:
You know the coalition liars are going to pretend croc's post don't exist. but thanks for enlightening those who are interested in the truth.


I don't really care about left, right, coalition, labor, greens etc. The only thing that really matters is the truth.

What is really funny is blaming the Victorian State Government and the closure of Hazelwood. French utility company, Engie closed the plant because the remedial costs of urgent repairs was $750 million and they didn't want to spend the money. So they shut it down. They own it so it's theirs to close.

Even funnier is that there was plenty of generation capacity but localised infrastructure couldn't handle the load at the local distribution points.
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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
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lee
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Re: Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke
Reply #103 - Feb 3rd, 2018 at 12:12pm
 
crocodile wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 10:53pm:
Even funnier is that there was plenty of generation capacity but localised infrastructure couldn't handle the load at the local distribution points.



yep. Those damned gold-plated networks, those interconnectors just don't seem up to the task. Obviously  not keeping their eyes on distribution peaks, with a view to plan any network upgrades.

5 network owners for Victoria.
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Re: Greeny renewable rubbish sending Australia broke
Reply #104 - Feb 3rd, 2018 at 1:43pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 12:12pm:
crocodile wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 10:53pm:
Even funnier is that there was plenty of generation capacity but localised infrastructure couldn't handle the load at the local distribution points.



yep. Those damned gold-plated networks, those interconnectors just don't seem up to the task. Obviously  not keeping their eyes on distribution peaks, with a view to plan any network upgrades.

5 network owners for Victoria.



The private companies are there to make money
not to provide continuous electrical power 24/7.
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