Australian Politics Forum - The Islamic Way

Grendel

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #225 - Feb 15^th, 2018 at 8:18am

Grendel wrote on Feb 13^th, 2018 at 6:22pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 13^th, 2018 at 6:15pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 13^th, 2018 at 12:21pm:

Brian, do you actually think it is just as easy to draw inspiration for violence from the teachings of Jesus as it is from the teachings of Muhammad?

From The Bible? Definitely. The Old Testament is full of inspiration like that. Tsk, tsk. Until Christians repudiate and abandon The Old Testament from The Bible, it will continue to inspire Christian Terrorists... Roll Eyes

The OT is the Hebrew Bible bwian it covers the religious history of the Jews.

Christ wasn't even born then, you find his teachings in the NEW Testament bwian... that's why its called the NEW Testament bwian.

Some DroD you turn out to be. Grin

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #226 - Feb 15^th, 2018 at 9:20am

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 12:26am:

Auggie wrote on Feb 14^th, 2018 at 11:01pm:

Brian, the actions of the founders of each religious tradition necessarily inform the practices of its adherents. Sure, Islam is more than Muhammad as Christianity is more than Christ but both religious traditions teach to follow the example of Muhammad and Christ.

Surely, you recognise that Jesus was undoubtedly more pacifistic than Muhammad in his actions.

Muhammad was a spiritual and military leader who established a state on earth. Jesus’ state and overlordship was in heaven and spirit.

Oh, deari, Augie. Doesn't matter how pacifist the founder is, it is how his message is "reinterpreted" that matters. Christianity was and still remains an extremely violent religion. So is Islam. Mohammed was trying to assert his will against an unwilling populace. Christianity since Christ was doing the same. In the end, both ended up converting peoples en mass by the sword. Should we only be criticising Islam and allow Christianity a free pass on the topic? I don't believe so. What about you, Augie? Roll Eyes

First, no doubt that Christianity was spread by the sword. The conquistadors in America were an example of this. The question is were they doing so by following the example of Jesus Christ or because they were following the mandate of the Catholic Church?

You cannot draw a straight line from Jesus’ teachings to violence. You can draw a straight line from Muhammad’s teachings to violence.

Second, Christianity was able to move on from its violent tendencies precisely because of its teachings. The abolition of slavery was driven by Christians. It was ultimately Christ’s ‘turn the other cheek’ way of life that changed things.

In Islam, there is no ‘turn the other cheek’. There is no room for interpretation because you can’t interpret God’s word according to islamic theology.

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #227 - Feb 15^th, 2018 at 9:23am

Second Brian, we need to establish some kind of objectivity as to what each religion teaches. We’re not being intellectually honest if we say that religion means whatever it means to the person because then it’s not religion. For eg I might consider myself a Christian but don’t believe in God, the resurrection of the divinity of Christ bur this belief is fundamentally against the teachings of Christianity.

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Brian Ross

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #228 - Feb 15^th, 2018 at 2:22pm

Auggie wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 9:20am:

First, no doubt that Christianity was spread by the sword. The conquistadors in America were an example of this. The question is were they doing so by following the example of Jesus Christ or because they were following the mandate of the Catholic Church?

Does it matter? The Church approved of their actions, actively encouraged them, Augie. As far as they were concerned, they were doing what Christ preached to do. We are talking about perceptions, rather than realities. If we examine the Christian Church(es)' history, it is littered with examples of men who believed they were doing Christ's will. Roll Eyes

Quote:

You cannot draw a straight line from Jesus’ teachings to violence. You can draw a straight line from Muhammad’s teachings to violence.

Can you? I've been thinking about this a great deal, Augie. I understand there are real difficulties in translating Mohammed's teachings to modern languages because of the lack of accents and the way words are used. I wonder how much of the interpretation of Mohammed's words are based upon misunderstanding of what he intended? Christ has had his words edited and re-edited, many times, which makes it easier to understand what he said (and changed the emphasis). There are whole Testament's missing from The Bible. Heresies were eliminated. How do you know what Christ supposedly said?

Quote:

Second, Christianity was able to move on from its violent tendencies precisely because of its teachings. The abolition of slavery was driven by Christians. It was ultimately Christ’s ‘turn the other cheek’ way of life that changed things.

It has been reinterpreted ITOW, right, Augie? This is one of the major criticism's that Muslims have of Christianity. In part I agree with them but also it make it obvious that Christianity as a movement has made a real effort t change with the times. For all we know, Christ suggested that the "Cheesemakers will inherit the Earth!" Roll Eyes

[/quote]
In Islam, there is no ‘turn the other cheek’. There is no room for interpretation because you can’t interpret God’s word according to islamic theology. [/quote]

Isn't too much of that in the history of Christianity, either, Augie. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #229 - Feb 15^th, 2018 at 2:26pm

Auggie wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 9:23am:

Second Brian, we need to establish some kind of objectivity as to what each religion teaches. We’re not being intellectually honest if we say that religion means whatever it means to the person because then it’s not religion. For eg I might consider myself a Christian but don’t believe in God, the resurrection of the divinity of Christ bur this belief is fundamentally against the teachings of Christianity.

Belief is personal, Augie. I'm happy for you to profess those beliefs but some Christians might not. We cannot sit down and objectively determine what a religion teaches when it's believers profess so many differences in what they believe in. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: The Islamic Way Reply #230 - Feb 15^th, 2018 at 2:58pm Oh come on bwian.... politics and the Church bwian do you honestly think Christ would have approved of the Pope and his followers etc over the ages before reformation etc... You claim to be a Dr of Divinity but you are the most disingenuous, dishonest TROLL here.
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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #231 - Feb 15^th, 2018 at 3:05pm

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 2:26pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 9:23am:

Second Brian, we need to establish some kind of objectivity as to what each religion teaches. We’re not being intellectually honest if we say that religion means whatever it means to the person because then it’s not religion. For eg I might consider myself a Christian but don’t believe in God, the resurrection of the divinity of Christ bur this belief is fundamentally against the teachings of Christianity.

Belief is personal, Augie. I'm happy for you to profess those beliefs but some Christians might not. We cannot sit down and objectively determine what a religion teaches when it's believers profess so many differences in what they believe in. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

If you don't believe Christ is the Son of God bwian, you aint Christian.

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #232 - Feb 15^th, 2018 at 3:11pm

Reply #228 - Today
Quote:

We are talking about perceptions, rather than realities

Has to be the excuse of the year for islamic terrorism.

Leftards bending over backwards to excuse the reality of today 2018:

Reality today is?:

muslims are the top 24 listed global terrorist organizations

Every single one of them can back up their degeneracy with teachings from the qur'an.

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #233 - Feb 15^th, 2018 at 3:18pm

Grendel wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 2:58pm:

Oh come on bwian.... politics and the Church bwian do you honestly think Christ would have approved of the Pope and his followers etc over the ages before reformation etc...

You claim to be a Dr of Divinity but you are the most disingenuous, dishonest TROLL here.

You mean to say there are others? Grin

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #234 - Feb 15^th, 2018 at 6:04pm

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 2:22pm:

Does it matter? The Church approved of their actions, actively encouraged them, Augie. As far as they were concerned, they were doing what Christ preached to do. We are talking about perceptions, rather than realities. If we examine the Christian Church(es)' history, it is littered with examples of men who believed they were doing Christ's will. Roll Eyes

No one is disputing that people have committed acts of terror in the name of Christ, the point is that Christianity was able to self-correct itself because it had the theological basis to do so. There was no anti-slavery movement in the Islamic world. Even though there is the slave verse in the Bible, why do you think the Christian church vehemently argued against slavery, leading to its abolition in the 1830s?

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 2:22pm:

Can you? I've been thinking about this a great deal, Augie. I understand there are real difficulties in translating Mohammed's teachings to modern languages because of the lack of accents and the way words are used. I wonder how much of the interpretation of Mohammed's words are based upon misunderstanding of what he intended? Christ has had his words edited and re-edited, many times, which makes it easier to understand what he said (and changed the emphasis). There are whole Testament's missing from The Bible. Heresies were eliminated. How do you know what Christ supposedly said?

Come on, Brian. You're smarter than that. We all know what the Bible claims Jesus to have said. Unless you have some old manuscript hidden in the basement we don't know about, all we've got is the New Testament and some other Gospels.

Even if you were to read into the Gnostic Gospels, Christ never preached violence.

And regarding what Muhammad said, nearly all translations of the Quran are exactly the same in meaning and understanding. 4:34 sanctions wife-beating for example.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 2:22pm:

It has been reinterpreted ITOW, right, Augie? This is one of the major criticism's that Muslims have of Christianity. In part I agree with them but also it make it obvious that Christianity as a movement has made a real effort t change with the times. For all we know, Christ suggested that the "Cheesemakers will inherit the Earth!" Roll Eyes

Re-interpreting it is one thing, the key point here is that Christianity in of itself provided the impetus for change. Its theology was the key here. Islamic theology doesn't allow for reformation or alteration.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 2:26pm:

Belief is personal, Augie. I'm happy for you to profess those beliefs but some Christians might not. We cannot sit down and objectively determine what a religion teaches when it's believers profess so many differences in what they believe in. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

No, there are certain objective truths that religion professes. We cannot talk seriously about religion unless we debate religion as to how adherents see it. It's all good and well for you and me to argue that religion is a 'set of symbols through which we interpret the world' - some post-modernist definition, but for most serious adherents of any religion, the religion is about TRUTH. It makes certain propositions about life and metaphysics. If we adopt the 'anything goes' approach then we can never seriously and realistic debate religion and belief.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 2:22pm:

In Islam, there is no ‘turn the other cheek’. There is no room for interpretation because you can’t interpret God’s word according to islamic theology.

Isn't too much of that in the history of Christianity, either, Augie. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes [/quote]

Sure, there isn't too much of that in human history in general. The point is that there is more of it than there is in Islam, and that's the key point.

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #235 - Feb 15^th, 2018 at 6:50pm

Auggie wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 6:04pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 2:22pm:

Does it matter? The Church approved of their actions, actively encouraged them, Augie. As far as they were concerned, they were doing what Christ preached to do. We are talking about perceptions, rather than realities. If we examine the Christian Church(es)' history, it is littered with examples of men who believed they were doing Christ's will. Roll Eyes

No one is disputing that people have committed acts of terror in the name of Christ, the point is that Christianity was able to self-correct itself because it had the theological basis to do so.

Don't they? Moses does. FD does. Yadda does. Numerous other (at least) nominal Christians in these fora have, Augie. Who am I dispute what they claim? They claim there are no Christian Terrorists yet reality proves otherwise. Thee are numerous examples of such people. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

Quote:

There was no anti-slavery movement in the Islamic world. Even though there is the slave verse in the Bible, why do you think the Christian church vehemently argued against slavery, leading to its abolition in the 1830s?

There was no anti-Slavery movement amongst Christians either for most of Christianity's history, Augie. Tsk, tsk. Slavery was considered perfectly OK until the Friends decided otherwise.

Quote:

Come on, Brian. You're smarter than that. We all know what the Bible claims Jesus to have said. Unless you have some old manuscript hidden in the basement we don't know about, all we've got is the New Testament and some other Gospels.

You are falling into the trap that the New Testament is truthful, Augie. What evidence do you have of that? Oh, wait, you have the New Testament. Really? Where has your ability to ascertain a self-fulfilling prophecy? Roll Eyes

Quote:

Even if you were to read into the Gnostic Gospels, Christ never preached violence.

The Gnostic Gospels are another source. How about the Gospel of Judas? How about the missing sources we don't know about, mmm? Roll Eyes

Quote:

And regarding what Muhammad said, nearly all translations of the Quran are exactly the same in meaning and understanding. 4:34 sanctions wife-beating for example.

Because they all draw upon the same sources, Augie. As I've said, there are many misunderstandings of what Mohammed said when you compare Medieval Arabic to modern Arabic. There are no accents, no puctuation, words have changed in their meaning. How do you know the modern translations are up to scratch, Mmmm?

Quote:

Re-interpreting it is one thing, the key point here is that Christianity in of itself provided the impetus for change. Its theology was the key here. Islamic theology doesn't allow for reformation or alteration.

We have seen the interpretation of many things change within the Bible, Augie. Look up the first ecumenical council of the Christian church and see how things changed, drastically. Funny that, hey? Roll Eyes

Quote:

No, there are certain objective truths that religion professes. We cannot talk seriously about religion unless we debate religion as to how adherents see it. It's all good and well for you and me to argue that religion is a 'set of symbols through which we interpret the world' - some post-modernist definition, but for most serious adherents of any religion, the religion is about TRUTH. It makes certain propositions about life and metaphysics. If we adopt the 'anything goes' approach then we can never seriously and realistic debate religion and belief.

We are arguing at cross-purposes here, Augie. I agree, some religious types are quite capable of perceiving the oddest things as "truth", which objectively are false. Look at how the Catholic church treated Galileo simply because he reported what he say through his telescope. Look at how the church treated Copernicus. Look at how the church treats non-Ptolemaic cosmology, Evolution, etc. These scientific facts are treated as falsehoods by many religious types. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

Quote:

Sure, there isn't too much of that in human history in general. The point is that there is more of it than there is in Islam, and that's the key point.

Islam has varied throughout it's history in how it regards science and medicine, Augie. Just as Christianity has. To many Muslims, if it isn't in the K'ran, it's not valid. If it isn't in The Bible, to many Christians, it does not exist. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #236 - Feb 15^th, 2018 at 7:14pm

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 6:50pm:

Don't they? Moses does. FD does. Yadda does. Numerous other (at least) nominal Christians in these fora have, Augie. Who am I dispute what they claim? They claim there are no Christian Terrorists yet reality proves otherwise. Thee are numerous examples of such people. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

I don't think they actually believe that, BR. If they did, I would be very surprised.

Of course people have committed terrorist acts in the name of Christ. There is also a question of degree and distinction. Islamist attacks are more numerous in present day than Christian attacks. This is a fact.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 6:50pm:

There was no anti-Slavery movement amongst Christians either for most of Christianity's history, Augie. Tsk, tsk. Slavery was considered perfectly OK until the Friends decided otherwise.

The point is that it was Christianity which was able to self-correct and push for the abolition of slavery.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 6:50pm:

You are falling into the trap that the New Testament is truthful, Augie. What evidence do you have of that? Oh, wait, you have the New Testament. Really? Where has your ability to ascertain a self-fulfilling prophecy? Roll Eyes

Do you have any other evidence to prove that Christ was not a peaceful person? If you do, please present your evidence.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 6:50pm:

Because they all draw upon the same sources, Augie. As I've said, there are many misunderstandings of what Mohammed said when you compare Medieval Arabic to modern Arabic. There are no accents, no puctuation, words have changed in their meaning. How do you know the modern translations are up to scratch, Mmmm?

The accents are still limited to the core of the word, BR. For example in Arabic, nearly all words have a 3 letter core. Take D-R-S as an example. D-R-S means to study, and in standard Arabic it's pronounced as Darasa. The accents change the function of word, but the meaning (past tense, etc.). If you add Ma to the front of it, and remove the first 'a' you get madrassa. Another example: K-T-B means to write, pronounced as kataba. What happens when you add ma and change the rest? Maktub, which means library. Very clever, isn't it?

Point is that the accents don't really change the meaning of the words that much. Kill is still kill.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 6:50pm:

We have seen the interpretation of many things change within the Bible, Augie. Look up the first ecumenical council of the Christian church and see how things changed, drastically. Funny that, hey? Roll Eyes

Last I checked, Christians believe Jesus is the son of God and is divine. That hasn't changed. What has changed is the idea that the Bible fell from the sky in the King James Version. Tsk, tsk.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 6:50pm:

We are arguing at cross-purposes here, Augie. I agree, some religious types are quite capable of perceiving the oddest things as "truth", which objectively are false. Look at how the Catholic church treated Galileo simply because he reported what he say through his telescope. Look at how the church treated Copernicus. Look at how the church treats non-Ptolemaic cosmology, Evolution, etc. These scientific facts are treated as falsehoods by many religious types. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

Christianity doesn't make the claim that the Bible is the literal Word of God, at least most Christians don't believe that now. They recognise that it written with divine inspiration, which is quite different.

The Quran is deemed to be the exact words God dictated to Muhammad, including every accent and mark. Muhammad even stated that 'he perfected the religion'. The religion is perfect, BR, therefore it is unchangeable. As far as I'm aware, there is no doctrine in Christianity that states that the religion is perfect.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 6:50pm:

Islam has varied throughout it's history in how it regards science and medicine, Augie. Just as Christianity has. To many Muslims, if it isn't in the K'ran, it's not valid. If it isn't in The Bible, to many Christians, it does not exist. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

The scientists and mathematicians in the Islamic world during the Islamic Golden Age were actually inspired by Greek philosophy, particularly neoplatonism. It was Western philosophy which drove the Islamic Golden Age, not the religion itself.

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #237 - Feb 15^th, 2018 at 7:38pm

Auggie wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 7:14pm:

I don't think they actually believe that, BR. If they did, I would be very surprised.

Then be surprised. Read what Moses, et all claim, Augie and get back to us, OK?

Quote:

Of course people have committed terrorist acts in the name of Christ. There is also a question of degree and distinction. Islamist attacks are more numerous in present day than Christian attacks. This is a fact.

No disputing that. However Christian attacks occur far more than you give credit for. In Africa, in India, in Europe, in the USA, Canada, etc. They occur and they are undertaken by Christians, Augie. Roll Eyes

Quote:

The point is that it was Christianity which was able to self-correct and push for the abolition of slavery.

Christianity resisted the anti-Slavery push for a long, long time, Augie. In the US, Churches were still claiming Biblical inspiration for Slavery until the Civil War stopped them. Roll Eyes

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Do you have any other evidence to prove that Christ was not a peaceful person? If you do, please present your evidence.

How can I when there are severe doubts he existed at all? How can I when the Church controls the only source of information about him? How can I when his PR is so good? Mmmm? Roll Eyes

Quote:

The accents are still limited to the core of the word, BR. For example in Arabic, nearly all words have a 3 letter core. Take D-R-S as an example. D-R-S means to study, and in standard Arabic it's pronounced as Darasa. The accents change the function of word, but the meaning (past tense, etc.). If you add Ma to the front of it, and remove the first 'a' you get madrassa. Another example: K-T-B means to write, pronounced as kataba. What happens when you add ma and change the rest? Maktub, which means library. Very clever, isn't it?

Point is that the accents don't really change the meaning of the words that much. Kill is still kill.

However, they change the pronunciation, don't they and when we are talking about a non-literate audience, that chances what the words are heard as. Then you have the non-Arabic speakers. Muslims resist the translation of the Q'ran into more modern Arabic because they fear the words becoming, in their view, distorted.

Quote:

Last I checked, Christians believe Jesus is the son of God and is divine. That hasn't changed. What has changed is the idea that the Bible fell from the sky in the King James Version. Tsk, tsk.

Look up at how the Holy Ghost is treated. Look how Mary is treated. Look how Jesus himself is treated. The interpretations of the Church has markedly changed down the ages, Augie.

Quote:

Christianity doesn't make the claim that the Bible is the literal Word of God, at least most Christians don't believe that now. They recognise that it written with divine inspiration, which is quite different.

The Quran is deemed to be the exact words God dictated to Muhammad, including every accent and mark. Muhammad even stated that 'he perfected the religion'. The religion is perfect, BR, therefore it is unchangeable. As far as I'm aware, there is no doctrine in Christianity that states that the religion is perfect.

Most Muslims believe that the Q'ran is divinely inspired, Augie. Many fundamentalist Christians believe that The Bible is divinely inspired, particularly the King James version. I see little difference between the two beliefs.

Quote:

The scientists and mathematicians in the Islamic world during the Islamic Golden Age were actually inspired by Greek philosophy, particularly neoplatonism. It was Western philosophy which drove the Islamic Golden Age, not the religion itself.

It was still considered to be a part of Islam. Christianity turned it's back on Philosophy and Science for millennium. Roll Eyes

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #238 - Feb 15^th, 2018 at 7:47pm

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 7:38pm:

No disputing that. However Christian attacks occur far more than you give credit for. In Africa, in India, in Europe, in the USA, Canada, etc. They occur and they are undertaken by Christians, Augie. Roll Eyes

There is no global, transnational organization that currently exists which seeks to establish a totalitarian Christian theocratic state.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 7:38pm:

Christianity resisted the anti-Slavery push for a long, long time, Augie. In the US, Churches were still claiming Biblical inspiration for Slavery until the Civil War stopped them. Roll Eyes

So, did every other culture and religion resist slavery? What's your point? That because Christianity resisted it also, means that we shouldn't recognise that it was the first to abolish it?

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 7:38pm:

How can I when there are severe doubts he existed at all? How can I when the Church controls the only source of information about him? How can I when his PR is so good? Mmmm? Roll Eyes

So, the answer is no. As far as anyone is aware, there is no historical, religious or otherwise evidence that Jesus Christ, in whatever form he took, was a warmongering bandit.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 7:38pm:

Look up at how the Holy Ghost is treated. Look how Mary is treated. Look how Jesus himself is treated. The interpretations of the Church has markedly changed down the ages, Augie.

Those propositions have not changed over the centuries Brian.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 7:38pm:

Most Muslims believe that the Q'ran is divinely inspired, Augie. Many fundamentalist Christians believe that The Bible is divinely inspired, particularly the King James version. I see little difference between the two beliefs.

First, most Muslims don't believe it's divinely-inspired; they believe it's the literal Word of God. Divine inspiration and the literal Word of God are two different things. When Paul wrote his letters he wasn't dictating the exact words God spoke to him was he? Also, the gospels aren't the dictation of the words of God are they?

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 7:38pm:

It was still considered to be a part of Islam. Christianity turned it's back on Philosophy and Science for millennium.

The driving force behind that Golden Age was classical Greek philosophy. Sure, we had the dark ages, but we came back, didn't we?

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #239 - Feb 15^th, 2018 at 8:51pm

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15^th, 2018 at 2:22pm:

We are talking about perceptions, rather than realities.

Why are you afraid to talk about the realities Brian? Why do you run in fear every time?

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Does it matter? The Church approved of their actions, actively encouraged them, Augie.

What did they actually approve Brian? Are you still blaming the church for the flu virus? Would you like to take that back now that you realise how completely idiotic it is?

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Can you? I've been thinking about this a great deal, Augie. I understand there are real difficulties in translating Mohammed's teachings to modern languages because of the lack of accents and the way words are used.

It is only difficult if you are a complete idiot Brian. If you can read and think for yourself, it is quite easy.

Quote:

I wonder how much of the interpretation of Mohammed's words are based upon misunderstanding of what he intended? Christ has had his words edited and re-edited, many times, which makes it easier to understand what he said (and changed the emphasis). There are whole Testament's missing from The Bible. Heresies were eliminated. How do you know what Christ supposedly said?

All we have is the Bible Brian. That is what defines the ideology. This would be true, even if Jesus was entirely fabricated. Again, if you can read, think for yourself, and are not a complete idiot, it is pretty easy to figure out what it says.

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Isn't too much of that in the history of Christianity, either, Augie. Tsk, tsk.

Again, you just make stuff up Brian. Why do you think Europe's history played out in such a vastly different manner to that of the middle east? Do you know how much forgiveness and turning the other cheek there actually was? How is it you can so conveniently claim to know the unknowable while also insisting that you find the bleeding obvious to be incomprehensible?

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We cannot sit down and objectively determine what a religion teaches when it's believers profess so many differences in what they believe in.

Yes you can Brian, unless you are a completel idiot, cannot read, and are incapable of thiking for yourself.

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Don't they? Moses does. FD does. Yadda does.

Again Brian. Read. Think for yourself. If you are not a complete idiot you will figure it out.

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There was no anti-Slavery movement amongst Christians either for most of Christianity's history, Augie. Tsk, tsk. Slavery was considered perfectly OK until the Friends decided otherwise.

BS. Europe has laregly lacked slavery from pretty close to the time it Christianised. There was a Christian-based anti-slavery movement regarding the new world from the moment Europeans entered the new world in large numbers. Again Brian, read, think for yourself. If you are not a complete idiot it will become obvious. You are doing the same thing with history you accuse religious people of doing with their religions. At some point, the truth has to matter, no matter how desperate you are to apologise for Islam's evil.

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You are falling into the trap that the New Testament is truthful, Augie.

No Brian. Merely that it says what it says, and that is what it teaches. Again, read, think for yourself, and if you are not a complete idiot it will be obvious. It is right there in black and white in the words of Augie that you quoted. The mind boggles at how completely you can misunderstand such a simple question

Quote:

Then be surprised. Read what Moses, et all claim, Augie and get back to us, OK?

No, don't be surprised. Brian is lying. He does not have a clue. It's just an endless stream of BS, and the moment you question him on it, it turns into a completely different stream of utter BS.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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