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The greenhouse effect (Read 9829 times)
Jovial Monk
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The greenhouse effect
Jul 9th, 2017 at 11:29am
 
From wiki:

Quote:
The explanation given in most sources for the warmer temperature in a greenhouse is that incident solar radiation (the visible and adjacent portions of the infrared and ultraviolet ranges of the spectrum) passes through the glass roof and walls and is absorbed by the floor, earth, and contents, which become warmer and re-emit the energy as longer-wavelength infrared radiation. Glass and other materials used for greenhouse walls do not transmit infrared radiation, so the infrared cannot escape via radiative transfer. As the structure is not open to the atmosphere, heat also cannot escape via convection, so the temperature inside the greenhouse rises. This is known as the "greenhouse effect".[14][15] The greenhouse effect, due to infrared-opaque "greenhouse gases", including carbon dioxide and methane instead of glass, also affects the earth as a whole; there is no convective cooling as air does not escape from the earth.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse

That is simple enough to understand: visible light passes through glass or transparent or translucent plastic easily enough (some gets reflected and that is why we can see the bally greenhouses  Grin ) some gets absorbed and the wavelength lengthens from visible light to infrared as the light loses energy. The walls of the greenhouse prevent IR from escaping, heating the greenhouse.

I think everyone agrees that it is warmer in a greenhouse than outside it? I mean, if it wasn’t farmers wouldn’t go to the trouble and expense of building the blessed things, right?

Now, as the last couple of sentences of the wiki article indicate, certain gases in the atmosphere can also block infrared radiation. That is why it is said that the earth is warming from “the greenhouse effect.” This property of carbon dioxide in particular has been known since the 19th century.

That carbon dioxide can block infrared radiation can be easily demonstrated in the lab by holding a glass container of CO2 in between a heat source and a spectrometer or even a sensitive thermometer. A container of air or pure oxygen or pure hydrogen etc does not block IR.

Have a look here for one such demonstration:


So as we burn more fossil fuels we put more and more carbon dioxide, CO2, into the atmosphere and so increase the greenhouse effect of the atmosphere, warming the earth. Nobody has a credible set of global temperatures over time showing that the global temperature is static or declining. Nobody!

We know other gases have an even stronger greenhouse effect: methane, CH4, a carbon atom bonded to four hydrogen atoms. Methane is being released as the Arctic tundra thaws due to the greenhouse effect. Methane has a much stronger greenhouse effect than carbon dioxide. Fortunately, methane has a shorter life than carbon dioxide and over time changes into carbon dioxide. But there is another greenhouse gas (GHG) with an even stronger greenhouse effect than methane: nitrous oxide:

Quote:
Nitrous oxide (N2O): Nitrous oxide is emitted during agricultural and industrial activities, as well as during combustion of fossil fuels and solid waste.

https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/overview-greenhouse-gases


Fortunately, nitrous oxide is only present in minute quantities but it is concerning that its concentration is increasing:

Quote:
There’s a greenhouse gas whose concentration is on the rise because of human activities. But it’s not the one you’d expect: it’s nitrous oxide (N2O), also known as laughing gas. It’s been accumulating in the atmosphere since the 1700s, and it’s powerful and persistent. One molecule of N2O has the same greenhouse warming power of 300 molecules of carbon dioxide. Once that N2O molecule gets into the upper atmosphere, it can stay there for more than 100 years before it’s destroyed naturally.

Fortunately, air has about 1,000 times less N2O than carbon dioxide. But the rise in N2O has accelerated over the past two decades. And while we know where the excess carbon dioxide is coming from, we don’t know precisely how N2O is produced.


http://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/feature/another-greenhouse-gas-to-watch--nitrous-oxi...

But N2O is being released faster at the poles than was thought:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nitrous-oxide-poses-fresh-threat-to-t...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1352231002003400

So the more powerful GHGs methane and nitrous oxide are starting to enter the atmosphere faster as global warming continues. No wonder we see that the fifteen years recording the highest temperatures have all occurred this century—which is only 17 years old!

Climate sensitivity

Climate sensitivity is the degree of change in global temperature in response to a change in GHG concentrations. Since the globe is warming due to the greenhouse effect climate sensitivity is measured as the increase in global temperature per doubling of CO2 concentration in the atmosphere:

Quote:
Climate sensitivity has been hard to pin down accurately. Climate models give a range of 1.5-4.5℃ per doubling of CO₂, whereas historical weather observations suggest a smaller range of 1.5-3.0℃ per doubling of CO₂.


https://theconversation.com/why-the-climate-is-more-sensitive-to-carbon-dioxide-...

To be cont’d
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« Last Edit: Jul 9th, 2017 at 1:24pm by Jovial Monk »  

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Jovial Monk
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Re: The greenhouse effect
Reply #1 - Jul 9th, 2017 at 11:29am
 
Proof of AGW

• The greenhouse gases—≥3 molecules, so H2O, CO2, CH4 and N2O but not N2, O2 & why

• Hypothesis testing, probability, the tests, confidence levels, noisy weather record

• Black body radiation ===> https://docs.kde.org/trunk5/en/kdeedu/kstars/ai-blackbody.html    
    http://eesc.columbia.edu/courses/ees/climate/lectures/radiation/  


• EM spectrum

• IR spectroscopy

• Spectroscopy results

• But we have had more CO2 in the atmosphere in past geologic eras!

    ===> http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1491514221;start=38;action=threadpage...
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« Last Edit: Jul 9th, 2017 at 11:58pm by Jovial Monk »  

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Jovial Monk
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Re: The greenhouse effect
Reply #2 - Jul 9th, 2017 at 11:29am
 
Consequences of AGW

• Extreme heat events

• Ice sheet melting and sea level rise

  – Greenland

  – Arctic–sea ice

      – albedo change

      – Gulf Stream

  – Antarctic

  – Himalayan ice sheet

• Ocean acidification

• Wild fires

• Agriculture/horticulture
    – Droughts ===> http://www.theevolvingplanet.com/norway-spruce-climate-change/
    – Pests spreading due to AGW ===> http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2015/04/pine-beetles/rosner-text[url][/url]


• Wild life
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« Last Edit: Jul 10th, 2017 at 12:27am by Jovial Monk »  

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Jovial Monk
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Re: The greenhouse effect
Reply #3 - Jul 9th, 2017 at 11:30am
 
What can be done?

• Adaptation

• Mitigation, coastal defences etc, east coast of US, sea levels differ from place to place

• ETS/Carbon Tax
  – energy efficiency

• Reafforestation—bamboo quicker growing than trees

• Chemical engineering—still thousands of years to remove CO2 probably
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« Last Edit: Jul 10th, 2017 at 12:11am by Jovial Monk »  

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lee
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Re: The greenhouse effect
Reply #4 - Jul 9th, 2017 at 12:09pm
 
oh dear, Having to resort to wiki and then further having to interpret what's written. Wink

Maybe you need to revisit Harries et al and look at what it really says.

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Re: The greenhouse effect
Reply #5 - Jul 9th, 2017 at 3:15pm
 
LOL
Happy we have the Greenhouse Effect Monk...  aren't you?
If we didn't you'd be a popsicle long ago.

BTW weather and climate on Earth is much more complicated than just a gas or two. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
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Jovial Monk
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Re: The greenhouse effect
Reply #6 - Jul 9th, 2017 at 9:43pm
 
If anybody with real knowledge and understanding of AGW etc can think of other subtopics or links etc then please post them in this thread.
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lee
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Re: The greenhouse effect
Reply #7 - Jul 9th, 2017 at 9:53pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 9th, 2017 at 9:43pm:
If anybody with real knowledge and understanding of AGW etc can think of other subtopics or links etc then please post them in this thread.


That would be a first. Grin Grin Grin
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Jovial Monk
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Re: The greenhouse effect
Reply #8 - Jul 9th, 2017 at 9:54pm
 
Clearly Lees has nothing to contribute but fear, ignorance and boorishness.

But anyone else feel free to suggest additions.
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lee
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Re: The greenhouse effect
Reply #9 - Jul 9th, 2017 at 10:02pm
 
Tell us about how spectronomy shows CO2 is causing AGW. Tell us about Harries et al 2001 paper,
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Jovial Monk
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Re: The greenhouse effect
Reply #10 - Jul 9th, 2017 at 10:19pm
 
If anybody with real, detailed knowledge and understanding of AGW etc can think of other subtopics or links etc then please post them in this thread.
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lee
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Re: The greenhouse effect
Reply #11 - Jul 9th, 2017 at 10:30pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 9th, 2017 at 11:29am:
Glass and other materials used for greenhouse walls do not transmit infrared radiation



Actually incorrect. It depends on the property of the glass.

http://www.koppglass.com/blog/optical-properties-of-glass-how-light-and-glass-in...

Other url's abound.
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Re: The greenhouse effect
Reply #12 - Jul 9th, 2017 at 11:56pm
 
If anybody with real, detailed knowledge and understanding of AGW etc can think of other subtopics or links etc then please post them in this thread. Any sensible suggestions welcome.
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lee
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Re: The greenhouse effect
Reply #13 - Jul 10th, 2017 at 11:16am
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jul 9th, 2017 at 11:29am:
Glass and other materials used for greenhouse walls do not transmit infrared radiation, so the infrared cannot escape via radiative transfer. As the structure is not open to the atmosphere, heat also cannot escape via convection, so the temperature inside the greenhouse rises. This is known as the "greenhouse effect".[14][15



You do understand wiki can not be relied upon? It can be helpful, but you need to check sources; if any.

Note the part I quote. There is no attribution to the claim that green house materials can't pass IR. That makes it suspect. It is merely an assertion without proof.

Note that there is attribution for Greenhouse Effect. 14,15, which are -
A Dictionary of Physics (6 ed.), Oxford University Press, 2009, ISBN 9780199233991: "greenhouse effect"
A Dictionary of Chemistry (6 ed.), edited by John Daintith, Publisher: Oxford University Press, 2008, ISBN 9780199204632: "greenhouse effect"
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« Last Edit: Jul 10th, 2017 at 11:35am by lee »  
 
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Re: The greenhouse effect
Reply #14 - Jul 10th, 2017 at 11:44am
 
It would be a waste of our time Monk...
I made this simple and you don't even understand it... Grin Grin Grin
Grendel wrote on Jul 9th, 2017 at 3:15pm:
LOL
Happy we have the Greenhouse Effect Monk...  aren't you?
If we didn't you'd be a popsicle long ago.

BTW weather and climate on Earth is much more complicated than just a gas or two. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

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