Australian Politics Forum - Questions for FD re: Torah

Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Questions for FD Torah Reply #60 - Jun 25^th, 2017 at 3:10pm Nope.... you go look for it yourself. I am not your slave. Clue it is not on this page.
Back to top	IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #61 - Jun 25^th, 2017 at 4:00pm

Grendel wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 3:10pm:

Nope.... you go look for it yourself.
I am not your slave.
Clue it is not on this page.

I did look. Yadda claims that the God of Islam is different to the God of Israel, because God is known as Allah. Allah is an Arabic word, which is an amalgamation of two words 'al-Ilah', which means 'god' in Arabic. The word was contracted to give the meaning of the God 'the only God'. Look it up.

Also, Christians and Jews in the Middle East also refers to God as Allah. So, what Yadda has said is incorrect.

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #62 - Jun 25^th, 2017 at 4:05pm

moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 2:59pm:

The Bible is written in the past tense except for the commandments.

Incorrect. Jesus speaks about His coming - i.e. in the future tense.

moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 2:59pm:

The Jews and Christians are able to progress unhindered by their holy books because their scriptures are conducive to it.

Only because we developed a tradition of hermaneutics in the West, where we analyze scripture in such manner. moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 2:59pm:

The quran is written in the present and future tense, it contains a core message:allah causes men to disbelieve, allah hates disbelievers / non muslims, muslims have the right to torture and kill disbelievers and muslim hypocrites, muhammad is the best of all examples (he was a thief liar pedophile rapist torturer and mass murderer), the muslim killer who dies in his sacred duties of mass slaughter is assured a place in allahs paradise overflowing with houris with big tits and little boys with eyes like pearls, rape is o.k.,etc. etc.

So, there are scholars who don't interpret the Quran in the way you interpret it, why? They are able to come up with reasonably good interpretations. Why are you discounting their interpretations?

And as I have demonstrated, Moses committed genocide, imposed a lax punishment for rape, and provided for the death of apostates; and Jews consider Moses to be greatest of the prophets. So, how in theory is this really any different?

moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 2:59pm:

Now the bullshit will flow from the muslim and the apologist about some occasional cherry picked line of non violence, but look at the world today when enlightenment is freely available through almost instantaneous communication / media, what are muslims?

Everyone cherry picks from scripture: this is not unique to Islam.

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

moses

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 6353

Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #63 - Jun 25^th, 2017 at 4:27pm

AugCaesarustus wrote
Quote:

Incorrect. Jesus speaks about His coming - i.e. in the future tense.

We all know that, I didn't think I'd have to exact, I'm referring to the O.T.laws etc. and N.T. texts which tell of past events.

Quote:

Only because we developed a tradition of hermaneutics in the West, where we analyze scripture in such manner.

The bible is conducive to our way of social modernity, it's only people with an agenda who continually try and bring up ancient irrelevant to the present day text, all the time.

Quote:

So, there are scholars who don't interpret the Quran in the way you interpret it, why? They are able to come up with reasonably good interpretations. Why are you discounting their interpretations?

You mean make halfhearted excuses for a book riddled with death and destruction of the unbeliever and hypocritical muslim.

Why do you think islam is where it is today?

Quote:

And as I have demonstrated, Moses committed genocide, imposed a lax punishment for rape, and provided for the death of apostates; and Jews consider Moses to be greatest of the prophets. So, how in theory is this really any different?

Moses? About 3500 years ago yet you still use him as some sort of weak explanation as to why muslims are unable to get it together in the 21st century.

Quote:

Everyone cherry picks from scripture: this is not unique to Islam.

Indeed they do, the job is made easier for the Jews and Christians as their books seem to be coping with todays' society.

islam on the other hand is between the rock and the hard place with their infallible perfect last message which engenders islamic atrocities.

muslims simply can't be honest about the qur'an without destroying islam.

Back to top

IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #64 - Jun 25^th, 2017 at 4:49pm

moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 4:27pm:

The bible is conducive to our way of social modernity, it's only people with an agenda who continually try and bring up ancient irrelevant to the present day text, all the time.

Yes, you're right, Christianity is conducive to our modern society because it allows people to live in the modern world without having to feel guilty about accumulating wealth or success, because everyone is saved through the grace of God.

moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 4:27pm:

You mean make halfhearted excuses for a book riddled with death and destruction of the unbeliever and hypocritical muslim.

Why do you think islam is where it is today?

It's important to understand that Islam was founded in a tribal context. Tribal societies are governed differently to modern societies (i.e. nation-states) with social institutions. Killing and violence was part of everyday life for tribes. Judaism was founded in the same social context. Christianity WAS NOT founded in such a context.

Muslims need to understand that the rules and laws proclaimed in the Medinan verses were relevant during a time of tribal society. The issue is that the concept of the nation-state is a Western one; the Ottomans were close to becoming an nation-state, but ultimately failed.

The Jewish people are better able to adapt to a nation-state because of their history as diaspora; and because of their tradition of the land of Israel, which God established really as a kind of nation-state already.

I'm not saying it's easy; it will be a challenge.

moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 4:27pm:

Moses? About 3500 years ago yet you still use him as some sort of weak explanation as to why muslims are unable to get it together in the 21st century.

You're missing my point: most Jews consider Moses to be the greatest Prophet and the best example of the Jews. This is exactly the same concept in Islam with regard to Muhammad. There's no difference in regard to theology; the difference lies in how Muslims interpret seriously the verses of the Quran and apply it to today's circumstances. Jews have been able to keep progressively interpreting the Torah.

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

moses

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 6353

Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #65 - Jun 25^th, 2017 at 5:12pm

AugCaesarustus

The quran has a garbled message of hate: allah causes disbelief, he will not let those he chooses to mislead believe, he hates these disbelievers, he could have revenge on them himself but prefers muslims kill them as a test, dying while killing these unbelievers is a guaranteed path to the houris and the little boys, the highest grade of muslims are the ones who slay and are slain in the way of allah.

It's got nothing to do with Moses or anyone else, the qur'an is the mirror image of the evil in muhammad, it's a funny thing how the qur'an always backed up every perversion muhammad committed isn't it?

There will never be any peace until everyone is honest about the qur'an, spin doctors continually trying to whitewash it are only prolonging the trouble.

Of course I know, you know, muslims know, a revision of islam will destroy it.

So at the moment we have all the smoke and mirrors by those who can't admit they are wrong about the doctrine of islam, but it will come as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow.

Truth will eventually destroy islam.

Back to top

IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #66 - Jun 25^th, 2017 at 5:33pm

moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 5:12pm:

The quran has a garbled message of hate: allah causes disbelief, he will not let those he chooses to mislead believe, he hates these disbelievers,

Have you heard of the doctrine of pre-destination in Calvinist theology? It states that God has already chosen before birth who will be saved and who won't be. This is based on the Bible which talk about 'the elect' or 'God has elected some of those...' This is basically the same as what you've outlined above. The message of the whole thing is that some people believe in God, others don't. Now, if you believe that God is omnipotent, then one conclusion that can be made is that God, in all his glory, makes people believe or disbelief for a variety of reasons. Of course, rationally, people don't believe because they have free will.

Ultimately, the message is the same; it's how it's expressed which is different.

moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 5:12pm:

he could have revenge on them himself but prefers muslims kill them as a test, dying while killing these unbelievers is a guaranteed path to the houris and the little boys, the highest grade of muslims are the ones who slay and are slain in the way of allah.

This is the same in Judaism: after God cleansed the earth by the flood, he vowed to no more do this, so instead commanded his prophets to do His work for him. I've given examples of Moses, Joshua, Samuel, all committing or condoning genocide at the command of God. It's no different to Islam.

moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 5:12pm:

It's got nothing to do with Moses or anyone else

So, Moses didn't reveal the Torah? Moses didn't behave according to the commands of His God? When the Prophet Samuel commanded the King of Israel to exterminate every Amalekite, the King wasn't doing to the bidding of God? God didn't punish people through His creation?

moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 5:12pm:

There will never be any peace until everyone is honest about the qur'an, spin doctors continually trying to whitewash it are only prolonging the trouble.

We won't achieve peace if we demonize Muslims and denounce their civilization. Of course, we can criticize Islam and we shouldn't be persecuted for doing so. We also need to understand that reform CAN take place. The Muslim world is undergoing a crisis at the moment, and they have to deal with this issue. An idea has to reform itself or otherwise it will die.

moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 5:12pm:

Of course I know, you know, muslims know, a revision of islam will destroy it.

No, I disagree. Reforming Islam is the key. It can be reformed without compromising a Muslim's faith. Gandalf and many others are able to be devout Muslims and practise it in a peaceful manner without suffering any dissonance.

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

Frank

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 49849
Gender: male

Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #67 - Jun 25^th, 2017 at 6:02pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 5:33pm:

moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 5:12pm:

The quran has a garbled message of hate: allah causes disbelief, he will not let those he chooses to mislead believe, he hates these disbelievers,

Have you heard of the doctrine of pre-destination in Calvinist theology? It states that God has already chosen before birth who will be saved and who won't be. This is based on the Bible which talk about 'the elect' or 'God has elected some of those...' This is basically the same as what you've outlined above.

And yet - no Calvinist jihadis are blowing themselves up or driving trucks into crowds in the name of Calvin.

So it's NOT the same as the Muslims, then. NOT basically, not any other way.

Back to top

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #68 - Jun 25^th, 2017 at 7:39pm

Frank wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 6:02pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 5:33pm:

moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 5:12pm:

The quran has a garbled message of hate: allah causes disbelief, he will not let those he chooses to mislead believe, he hates these disbelievers,

Have you heard of the doctrine of pre-destination in Calvinist theology? It states that God has already chosen before birth who will be saved and who won't be. This is based on the Bible which talk about 'the elect' or 'God has elected some of those...' This is basically the same as what you've outlined above.

And yet - no Calvinist jihadis are blowing themselves up or driving trucks into crowds in the name of Calvin.

So it's NOT the same as the Muslims, then. NOT basically, not any other way.

Sore End, I was referring specifically to the idea that in Islam, God makes some people not believe. Don't conflate one idea with another.

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

Frank

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 49849
Gender: male

Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #69 - Jun 25^th, 2017 at 10:38pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 7:39pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 6:02pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 5:33pm:

moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 5:12pm:

The quran has a garbled message of hate: allah causes disbelief, he will not let those he chooses to mislead believe, he hates these disbelievers,

Have you heard of the doctrine of pre-destination in Calvinist theology? It states that God has already chosen before birth who will be saved and who won't be. This is based on the Bible which talk about 'the elect' or 'God has elected some of those...' This is basically the same as what you've outlined above.

And yet - no Calvinist jihadis are blowing themselves up or driving trucks into crowds in the name of Calvin.

So it's NOT the same as the Muslims, then. NOT basically, not any other way.

Sore End, I was referring specifically to the idea that in Islam, God makes some people not believe. Don't conflate one idea with another.

Anything God says in Islam is idiotic - it is Mohammed talking tosh.

Back to top

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

Grendel

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 28080
Gender: male

Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #70 - Jun 26^th, 2017 at 12:56pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 4:00pm:

Grendel wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 3:10pm:

Nope.... you go look for it yourself.
I am not your slave.
Clue it is not on this page.

I did look. Yadda claims that the God of Islam is different to the God of Israel, because God is known as Allah. Allah is an Arabic word, which is an amalgamation of two words 'al-Ilah', which means 'god' in Arabic. The word was contracted to give the meaning of the God 'the only God'. Look it up.

Also, Christians and Jews in the Middle East also refers to God as Allah. So, what Yadda has said is incorrect.

Why quote Yadda at me... I'm not Yadda. Grin

Oh and I'm pretty sure your last comment is incorrect.
None of my Jewish or Christian friends from the ME refer to God as Allah.

Back to top

IP Logged

Grendel

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 28080
Gender: male

Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #71 - Jun 26^th, 2017 at 1:04pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 4:49pm:

[quote author=moses link=1498121672/63#63 date=1498372021]The bible is conducive to our way of social modernity, it's only people with an agenda who continually try and bring up ancient irrelevant to the present day text, all the time.

Yes, you're right, Christianity is conducive to our modern society because it allows people to live in the modern world without having to feel guilty about accumulating wealth or success, because everyone is saved through the grace of God.

Ah Rubbish that is incorrect.

moses wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 4:27pm:

You mean make halfhearted excuses for a book riddled with death and destruction of the unbeliever and hypocritical muslim.

Why do you think islam is where it is today?

It's important to understand that Islam was founded in a tribal context. Tribal societies are governed differently to modern societies (i.e. nation-states) with social institutions. Killing and violence was part of everyday life for tribes. Judaism was founded in the same social context. Christianity WAS NOT founded in such a context.

Ah more Rubbish, Christianity was founded in the time of Christ. Are you now saying no tribes existed in the ME in those times?

Back to top

IP Logged

moses

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 6353

Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #72 - Jun 26^th, 2017 at 5:21pm

AugCaesarustus wrote Reply #66 - Yesterday at 5:33pm

Quote:

Have you heard of the doctrine of pre-destination in Calvinist theology? It states that God has already chosen before birth who will be saved and who won't be. This is based on the Bible which talk about 'the elect' or 'God has elected some of those...' This is basically the same as what you've outlined above. The message of the whole thing is that some people believe in God, others don't. Now, if you believe that God is omnipotent, then one conclusion that can be made is that God, in all his glory, makes people believe or disbelief for a variety of reasons. Of course, rationally, people don't believe because they have free will.

Ultimately, the message is the same; it's how it's expressed which is different.

&

This is the same in Judaism: after God cleansed the earth by the flood, he vowed to no more do this, so instead commanded his prophets to do His work for him. I've given examples of Moses, Joshua, Samuel, all committing or condoning genocide at the command of God. It's no different to Islam.

&

So, Moses didn't reveal the Torah? Moses didn't behave according to the commands of His God? When the Prophet Samuel commanded the King of Israel to exterminate every Amalekite, the King wasn't doing to the bidding of God? God didn't punish people through His creation?

Meanwhile the trouble in the world is islamic doctrine, it's got nothing to do with with Moses the Bible or any thing other than islamic teachings.

muslims will eventually have to accept responsibility for themselves, their god allah and their prophet muhammad.

Until that day comes things will never change.

Quote:

We won't achieve peace if we demonize Muslims and denounce their civilization. Of course, we can criticize Islam and we shouldn't be persecuted for doing so. We also need to understand that reform CAN take place. The Muslim world is undergoing a crisis at the moment, and they have to deal with this issue. An idea has to reform itself or otherwise it will die.

&

No, I disagree. Reforming Islam is the key. It can be reformed without compromising a Muslim's faith. Gandalf and many others are able to be devout Muslims and practise it in a peaceful manner without suffering any dissonance.

You won't achieve peace by lying about the meaning of the doctrine of hate and death pushed in the qur'an.

Peace comes when we are all honest about islam, however this will mean the demise of islam, for the truth is the qur'an is fallible flawed and has to be changed.

Result?

No more islam.

Back to top

IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #73 - Jun 26^th, 2017 at 8:17pm

Grendel wrote on Jun 26^th, 2017 at 12:56pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 4:00pm:

Grendel wrote on Jun 25^th, 2017 at 3:10pm:

Nope.... you go look for it yourself.
I am not your slave.
Clue it is not on this page.

I did look. Yadda claims that the God of Islam is different to the God of Israel, because God is known as Allah. Allah is an Arabic word, which is an amalgamation of two words 'al-Ilah', which means 'god' in Arabic. The word was contracted to give the meaning of the God 'the only God'. Look it up.

Also, Christians and Jews in the Middle East also refers to God as Allah. So, what Yadda has said is incorrect.

Why quote Yadda at me... I'm not Yadda. Grin

Oh and I'm pretty sure your last comment is incorrect.
None of my Jewish or Christian friends from the ME refer to God as Allah.

What do they call God then?

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged

Auggie

Gold Member

Offline

The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571

Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #74 - Jun 26^th, 2017 at 8:19pm

Grendel wrote on Jun 26^th, 2017 at 1:04pm:

Ah Rubbish that is incorrect.

So, rich people aren't saved then? Does that mean that Turnbull is going to hell?

Grendel wrote on Jun 26^th, 2017 at 1:04pm:

Ah more Rubbish, Christianity was founded in the time of Christ. Are you now saying no tribes existed in the ME in those times?

Jesus and his disciples didn't live under a tribal form of governance; they lived under the imperial authority of Rome where the rule of law existed. Muhammad and Moses were functioning within a tribal society.

Back to top

The Progressive President

IP Logged