Australian Politics Forum - Questions for FD re: Torah

moses

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #30 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 4:08pm

The Bible was fifteen hundred years in the making

The Old Testament was written between 1400 and 400 B.C. The first book composed was either the Book of Genesis or the Book of Job. The books of the New Testament were written from approximately A.D. 40 to A.D. 80.

The Bible Was Written By Many Authors With Many Occupations

48 Prophets & 7 Prophetesses wrote he O.T. the N.T. written by several different apostles,deacons, fishermen, a tax collector, a doctor etc.

It is a collection of letters, sermons, law, poetic descriptions, narratives of historical events, prayer, praise, practical sayings, and the warnings of the prophets

The books of the Bible were composed upon three different continents - Africa, Asia, and Europe

Biblical books were composed in differing circumstances. Moses wrote while leading the children of Israel through the wilderness. Jeremiah penned his book while in a dungeon in Israel. Ezekiel composed his book while a captive in Babylon. The Apostle Paul wrote several of his works while in a Roman prison. John the evangelist wrote the Book of Revelation while banished to the island of Patmos. etc.

The Bible was written in three different languages. The Old Testament was written mostly in Hebrew with some parts being composed in Aramaic - a language similar to Hebrew. The New Testament was originally written in Greek.

Because the Bible was written over a period of fifteen hundred years most of the writers did not personally know the other writers of Scripture. In addition, the Old Testament authors would have been unfamiliar with the New Testament writings.

Despite the time frame of 1500 years by authors who in the most part did not know each other, from a variety of professions, the bible is in harmony. According to the spirit driving each man / woman author.

The O.T. leads up to the N.T. where a profound change (which was foretold in the O.T.) was instituted, ( the law became defunct, man could have salvation through faith in Christ)

conversely

The qur'an is the work of one man, it is a reflection of his spirit.

muhammad was a thief liar pedophile rapist torturer and mass murderer, the evil in the qur'an is a mirror image of the persona of muhammad.

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freediver

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #31 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 4:50pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 6:54pm:

FD, please answer and respond to the following verses and my comments:

1) Deuteronomy 13:6 - "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again."

Apostates are killed in the Torah. According to Maimonides 613 commandments, one must: "not cease hating the idolator". This is derived from the foregoing verse.

2) Deuteronomy 22: "28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Isn't this condoning and permitting rape?

No.

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:04pm:

This one is in the Bible (sorry, should've said that in the Subject too....)

3) Luke 19:27, "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Isn't this a blanket call to murder by Jesus?

No.

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Grendel

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #32 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 6:19pm

Aussie proving he is clueless...

Aussie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:58pm:

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:52pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:04pm:

This one is in the Bible (sorry, should've said that in the Subject too....)

3) Luke 19:27, "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Isn't this a blanket call to murder by Jesus?

Ah its a parable.... you do know what a parable is right?

Doesn't look like a parable to me. Purports to be a 'direct quote' if there ever can be such a thing in this jurisdiction of hearsay upon hearsay a thousand times over.

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Yadda

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #33 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 6:51pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:04pm:

This one is in the Bible (sorry, should've said that in the Subject too....)

3) Luke 19:27, "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Isn't this a blanket call to murder by Jesus?

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:52pm:

Ah its a parable.... you do know what a parable is right?

Aussie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:58pm:

Doesn't look like a parable to me. Purports to be a 'direct quote' if there ever can be such a thing in this jurisdiction of hearsay upon hearsay a thousand times over.

Luke 19:11
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Jesus said it.

As a cautionary tale, to those who heard it.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Auggie

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #34 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:03pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 10:52pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 8:33pm:

My point is that the scripture of the Torah is as violent as the Quran. So those who express concerns about Islam, and are directly associate the religion with violence, could be incorrect about the religion itself. Maybe it's not the religion that's the problem?

Do the jews take the Torah literally like muslims do with the Quran?

Perhaps that is why the jews aren't as bad.

No end to your apologetics with Islam is there.

That's my point: the Jews don't; many Muslims do. So, the problem isn't with the theology of Islam, it's come down to the reader and interpretation.

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Auggie

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #35 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:07pm

moses wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 4:08pm:

The Bible was fifteen hundred years in the making

The Old Testament was written between 1400 and 400 B.C. The first book composed was either the Book of Genesis or the Book of Job. The books of the New Testament were written from approximately A.D. 40 to A.D. 80.

The Bible Was Written By Many Authors With Many Occupations

48 Prophets & 7 Prophetesses wrote he O.T. the N.T. written by several different apostles,deacons, fishermen, a tax collector, a doctor etc.

It is a collection of letters, sermons, law, poetic descriptions, narratives of historical events, prayer, praise, practical sayings, and the warnings of the prophets

The books of the Bible were composed upon three different continents - Africa, Asia, and Europe

Biblical books were composed in differing circumstances. Moses wrote while leading the children of Israel through the wilderness. Jeremiah penned his book while in a dungeon in Israel. Ezekiel composed his book while a captive in Babylon. The Apostle Paul wrote several of his works while in a Roman prison. John the evangelist wrote the Book of Revelation while banished to the island of Patmos. etc.

The Bible was written in three different languages. The Old Testament was written mostly in Hebrew with some parts being composed in Aramaic - a language similar to Hebrew. The New Testament was originally written in Greek.

Because the Bible was written over a period of fifteen hundred years most of the writers did not personally know the other writers of Scripture. In addition, the Old Testament authors would have been unfamiliar with the New Testament writings.

Despite the time frame of 1500 years by authors who in the most part did not know each other, from a variety of professions, the bible is in harmony. According to the spirit driving each man / woman author.

The O.T. leads up to the N.T. where a profound change (which was foretold in the O.T.) was instituted, ( the law became defunct, man could have salvation through faith in Christ)

So, you know what you're doing now? You're actually making my point: you think that the Bible is a collection of texts written by different people reflecting the communities of the time, etc. But, that is because we have developed a tradition of hermaneutics in Christianity and Judaism. Before the enlightenment, many Christians believed that the Bible was the Word of God; in fact, I've spoken with Christians who believe that the Bible was dictated by Jesus' apostles as he spoke.

Likewise, many Muslims contend that yes God did speak through Muhammad BUT that some verses were written were revealed in a specific context with limited application. This is hermameutics; exactly the same type of logic you are talking about with the Bible.

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Auggie

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #36 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:09pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 6:51pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:04pm:

This one is in the Bible (sorry, should've said that in the Subject too....)

3) Luke 19:27, "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Isn't this a blanket call to murder by Jesus?

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:52pm:

Ah its a parable.... you do know what a parable is right?

Aussie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:58pm:

Doesn't look like a parable to me. Purports to be a 'direct quote' if there ever can be such a thing in this jurisdiction of hearsay upon hearsay a thousand times over.

Luke 19:11
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Jesus said it.

As a cautionary tale, to those who heard it.

A cautionary tale about what? The word 'slay' is used. Are you saying that slay doesn't mean slay - i.e. 'taking a person life'. In that case, I could make that argument about the Quran - slay doesn't really mean 'take a life'/

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Questions for FD Torah Reply #37 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:30pm good grief... don't waste your time Yadda, they are too thick to understand. I've been over it, now YOU have and still they don't get it.
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Auggie

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #38 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 8:07pm

Grendel wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:30pm:

good grief...
don't waste your time Yadda, they are too thick to understand.
I've been over it, now YOU have and still they don't get it.

See, again. No effort to explain or define your position. Don't quote me scripture; use reasoning and argument to make your point.

This happens again and again with, G. Prove me wrong.

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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: Questions for FD Torah Reply #39 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 8:07pm freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 4:50pm: No. No is not an argument, FD.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49852 At my desk.	Re: Questions for FD Torah Reply #40 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 8:31pm It is an answer.
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Yadda

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #41 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 8:49pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:09pm:

A cautionary tale about what? The word 'slay' is used. Are you saying that slay doesn't mean slay - i.e. 'taking a person life'. In that case, I could make that argument about the Quran - slay doesn't really mean 'take a life'/

It was a cautionary tale, criticising mankind's recklessness, mankind's rebellion, and mankind's cruel lawlessness.

Criticising mankind's rebellion against God's authority, to order his creation.

Deuteronomy 8:2
And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

Deuteronomy 11:26
Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Jeremiah 9:23
Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Atheists cannot 'believe', that anyone should have authority [for good] over them.

They reject God's authority.

They reject that 'authority' which is alive, within their own conscience.

They see it as an 'inconvenient' authority, which they choose to 'brush aside'.

But, God is going to judge us, all of us.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: Questions for FD Torah Reply #42 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 8:51pm freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 8:31pm: It is an answer. Ok, so why is it 'no' or do you not have a reason?
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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 22069 A cat with a view	Re: Questions for FD Torah Reply #43 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 8:53pm Grendel wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:30pm: good grief... don't waste your time Yadda, they are too thick to understand. I've been over it, now YOU have and still they don't get it. Yep. They have no desire to hear, what is 'inconvenient' to them.
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Auggie

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #44 - Jun 24^th, 2017 at 8:56pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 8:49pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 24^th, 2017 at 7:09pm:

A cautionary tale about what? The word 'slay' is used. Are you saying that slay doesn't mean slay - i.e. 'taking a person life'. In that case, I could make that argument about the Quran - slay doesn't really mean 'take a life'/

It was a cautionary tale, criticising mankind's recklessness, mankind's rebellion, and mankind's cruel lawlessness.

Criticising mankind's rebellion against God's authority, to order his creation.

Deuteronomy 8:2
And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.

Deuteronomy 11:26
Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Jeremiah 9:23
Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Atheists cannot 'believe', that anyone should have authority [for good] over them.

They reject God's authority.

They reject that 'authority' which is alive, within their own conscience.

They see it as an 'inconvenient' authority, which they choose to 'brush aside'.

But, God is going to judge us, all of us.

So, why doesn't the same principal apply to God in Islam?

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