Australian Politics Forum - Questions for FD re: Torah

Yadda

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #15 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 3:12pm

Deuteronomy 4:5
Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

The God of Israel is a just and righteous God.

We see this, in HIS law.

e.g.
In OT law, the God of Israel makes clear, that his law does not require a person to be killed, who 'sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD'.

e.g.
If a soul shall sin through ignorance,
then a 'monetary' penalty [i.e. the cost of a sin offering] would be exacted from an offender.

But though a transgression of the law may normally require death, as punishment, his/her death is NOT required,
....if it is a 'sin through ignorance' against God's commandment.

Leviticus 4:27
And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

Numbers 15:22
And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses,
23 Even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations;
24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

But if a person understands what 'wrongdoing' is, and yet still transgresses....

Numbers 15:30
But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Leviticus 4:1-4
Leviticus 4:22-24
Leviticus 5:15-19

The God of Israel is a just and righteous God.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Auggie

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #16 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 4:19pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 1:06pm:

Do you believe that the Bible condones, what ISLAM itself 'legitimises' ?

Yes, there are parts that do condone what Islam legitimizes as per the verses quoted.

Yadda wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 1:06pm:

Those persons who were to suffer those OT punishments were covenant breakers.

A covenant-breaker was someone who broke the laws of God. If God commanded you to commit genocide and you didn't, then you were considered an convenant-breaker. I refer to you Samuel 15 where the Prophet Samuel chides the King of Israel for 'not committing genocide' against the Amalekites and God discards the King for another person because he refused to commit such genocide.

Yadda wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 1:06pm:

All of the Hebrews of that day KNEW that it was a serious crime, to break the covenant they had made with their Holy God.

This is your personal interpretation of the situation. How do you know?

Yadda wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 1:06pm:

QUESTION;
Do you think that it is 'unreasonable', to expect someone to honour an agreement/covenant, that they make with us ?

And do you think that it would be 'unfair' or harsh, to be punished according to the agreed terms of an agreement, if we break our agreements ?

??????

I assume that you are referring to the laws of our land? Yes, people who come to this country should follow and comply with our laws, which most migrants do.

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Auggie

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #17 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 4:20pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 1:16pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 6:54pm:

2) Deuteronomy 22: "28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Isn't this condoning and permitting rape?

Not at all.

Deuteronomy 22:28
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

augcaesarustus,

n.b.
In OT law.....

There is no concession that the 'damsel that is a virgin' MUST, consequently, marry that person who took her virginity.

The 'imposition' to marry, is always upon the man, at the pleasure of the woman's family.

--------- >

Exodus 22:16
And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

So, the rapist isn't stoned or sent to prison. He's just fined 50 shekels. How moral!

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Karnal

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #18 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 10:23pm

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 11:51pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 9:11pm:

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:48pm:

The Torah also known as the Pentateuch is the 1st 5 books of the Old Testament... which is the history of Jewish Religion.

Your point would be? That in ancient times people killed people by stoning for reasons we wouldn't today unless we were Muslims. Roll Eyes

Ah, but stoning isn't mentioned in the Koran, Grendel.

Well TROLL I never said it was did I. Are you saying Muslims do not stone people to death today? Would you like me to post some articles and pictures to correct you?

Where do you think Muslims got that one from?

You tell me YOUR the MUSLIM apparently... who knows nothing about Islam. Or is just a bare faced liar... If you want to be a disingenuous prick and carry on like this waste someone else's time we all know the Koran is not the only book or writings Islam is based on don't we.
BTW I already covered this in explanations about Sharia and hudud. tsk, tsk, ts, oh dear, whatever will you do next eh?

FD?

Grendel doesn't want to say, FD.

Which book does stoning come from? Anyone?

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Grendel

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #19 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 10:39pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 10:23pm:

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 11:51pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 9:11pm:

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:48pm:

The Torah also known as the Pentateuch is the 1st 5 books of the Old Testament... which is the history of Jewish Religion.

Your point would be? That in ancient times people killed people by stoning for reasons we wouldn't today unless we were Muslims. Roll Eyes

Ah, but stoning isn't mentioned in the Koran, Grendel.

Well TROLL I never said it was did I. Are you saying Muslims do not stone people to death today? Would you like me to post some articles and pictures to correct you?

Where do you think Muslims got that one from?

You tell me YOUR the MUSLIM apparently... who knows nothing about Islam. Or is just a bare faced liar... If you want to be a disingenuous prick and carry on like this waste someone else's time we all know the Koran is not the only book or writings Islam is based on don't we.
BTW I already covered this in explanations about Sharia and hudud. tsk, tsk, ts, oh dear, whatever will you do next eh?

FD?

Grendel doesn't want to say, FD.

Which book does stoning come from? Anyone?

YOU ARE SUCH A LIAR....

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Questions for FD Torah Reply #20 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 10:42pm
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Questions for FD Torah Reply #21 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 10:46pm Hey Auggie.... IRAN.
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #22 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 10:48pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 9:11pm:

Ah, but stoning isn't mentioned in the Koran, Grendel.

Where do you think Muslims got that one from?

FD?

Muslims and stoning is a case of monkey see monkey do-
Sunnah.com/bukhari/63/75

The verse on stoning was revealed according to Bukhari so what happened to it, did it become sheep poo?
What is this nonsense on breastfeeding an adult?
Sunnah.com/urn/1262630

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Questions for FD Torah Reply #23 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 10:49pm
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #24 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 10:52pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 8:33pm:

My point is that the scripture of the Torah is as violent as the Quran. So those who express concerns about Islam, and are directly associate the religion with violence, could be incorrect about the religion itself. Maybe it's not the religion that's the problem?

Do the jews take the Torah literally like muslims do with the Quran?

Perhaps that is why the jews aren't as bad.

No end to your apologetics with Islam is there.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 19119 Gender:	Re: Questions for FD Torah Reply #25 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 10:54pm Grendel wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 10:46pm: Hey Auggie.... IRAN. http://www.executedtoday.com/images/Stoning_in_Iran.jpg Did this stoning to death come back after the 1979 Islamic revolution, how many people were stoned to death under the Shah was it zero zip zilch?
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Yadda

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #26 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 11:03pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 10:52pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 8:33pm:

My point is that the scripture of the Torah is as violent as the Quran. So those who express concerns about Islam, and are directly associate the religion with violence, could be incorrect about the religion itself. Maybe it's not the religion that's the problem?

Do the jews take the Torah literally like muslims do with the Quran?

Perhaps that is why the jews aren't as bad.

No end to your apologetics with Islam is there.

Yep.

Sometimes, when it disguises his walk, it is a little difficult to recognise a duck.

But once he starts quacking, .......

Quack, quack, quack!

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #27 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 11:04pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 10:48pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 9:11pm:

Ah, but stoning isn't mentioned in the Koran, Grendel.

Where do you think Muslims got that one from?

FD?

Muslims and stoning is a case of monkey see monkey do-
Sunnah.com/bukhari/63/75

The verse on stoning was revealed according to Bukhari so what happened to it, did it become sheep poo?
What is this nonsense on breastfeeding an adult?
Sunnah.com/urn/1262630

This isn't the Koran, Baron.

Now which religious text includes stoning to death as The Law?

Anybody?

FD doesn't want to say. Moses is too busy, well, stoning.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #28 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 11:06pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 11:04pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 10:48pm:

Karnal wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 9:11pm:

Ah, but stoning isn't mentioned in the Koran, Grendel.

Where do you think Muslims got that one from?

FD?

Muslims and stoning is a case of monkey see monkey do-
Sunnah.com/bukhari/63/75

The verse on stoning was revealed according to Bukhari so what happened to it, did it become sheep poo?
What is this nonsense on breastfeeding an adult?
Sunnah.com/urn/1262630

This isn't the Koran, Baron.

Now which religious text includes stoning to death as The Law?

Anybody?

FD doesn't want to say. Moses is too busy, well, stoning.

The Saudi and Iranian constitutions say Gods book (quran) and his Sunnah are the constitution, are they using these religious texts for the law ya dopey dickhead?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Karnal

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #29 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 11:09pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 10:52pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 8:33pm:

My point is that the scripture of the Torah is as violent as the Quran. So those who express concerns about Islam, and are directly associate the religion with violence, could be incorrect about the religion itself. Maybe it's not the religion that's the problem?

Do the jews take the Torah literally like muslims do with the Quran?

Ah. Good work, Baron. We knew you'd get it in the end.

Do the Jews take the Torah literally? Do they cook milk and meat separately? Keep menstrating women away on the Sabbath? Sprinkle the blood of lambs on their doorsteps at Passover? Circumcise their sons and slaves 8 days after birth?

Questions questions.

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