Australian Politics Forum - Questions for FD re: Torah

Auggie

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Questions for FD re: Torah
Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 6:54pm

FD, please answer and respond to the following verses and my comments:

1) Deuteronomy 13:6 - "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again."

Apostates are killed in the Torah. According to Maimonides 613 commandments, one must: "not cease hating the idolator". This is derived from the foregoing verse.

2) Deuteronomy 22: "28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Isn't this condoning and permitting rape?

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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: Questions for FD Torah Reply #1 - Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:04pm This one is in the Bible (sorry, should've said that in the Subject too....) 3) Luke 19:27, "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me." Isn't this a blanket call to murder by Jesus?
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Questions for FD Torah Reply #2 - Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:48pm The Torah also known as the Pentateuch is the 1st 5 books of the Old Testament... which is the history of Jewish Religion. Your point would be? That in ancient times people killed people by stoning for reasons we wouldn't today unless we were Muslims.
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Grendel

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #3 - Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:52pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:04pm:

This one is in the Bible (sorry, should've said that in the Subject too....)

3) Luke 19:27, "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Isn't this a blanket call to murder by Jesus?

Ah its a parable.... you do know what a parable is right?

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Aussie

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #4 - Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:58pm

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:52pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:04pm:

This one is in the Bible (sorry, should've said that in the Subject too....)

3) Luke 19:27, "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Isn't this a blanket call to murder by Jesus?

Ah its a parable.... you do know what a parable is right?

Doesn't look like a parable to me. Purports to be a 'direct quote' if there ever can be such a thing in this jurisdiction of hearsay upon hearsay a thousand times over.

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Grendel

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #5 - Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 8:04pm

Aussie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:58pm:

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:52pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:04pm:

This one is in the Bible (sorry, should've said that in the Subject too....)

3) Luke 19:27, "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Isn't this a blanket call to murder by Jesus?

Ah its a parable.... you do know what a parable is right?

Doesn't look like a parable to me. Purports to be a 'direct quote' if there ever can be such a thing in this jurisdiction of hearsay upon hearsay a thousand times over.

Really?
How would you know it wasn't if you've never read it since it is actually recorded as a parable? hmmm...
It is not Jesus saying kill them... it is a man who becomes King in the story after he returns to his servants.

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Auggie

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #6 - Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 8:33pm

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:48pm:

The Torah also known as the Pentateuch is the 1st 5 books of the Old Testament... which is the history of Jewish Religion.

Your point would be? That in ancient times people killed people by stoning for reasons we wouldn't today unless we were Muslims. Roll Eyes

My point is that the scripture of the Torah is as violent as the Quran. So those who express concerns about Islam, and are directly associate the religion with violence, could be incorrect about the religion itself. Maybe it's not the religion that's the problem?

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Auggie

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #7 - Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 8:34pm

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 8:04pm:

Aussie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:58pm:

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:52pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:04pm:

This one is in the Bible (sorry, should've said that in the Subject too....)

3) Luke 19:27, "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Isn't this a blanket call to murder by Jesus?

Ah its a parable.... you do know what a parable is right?

Doesn't look like a parable to me. Purports to be a 'direct quote' if there ever can be such a thing in this jurisdiction of hearsay upon hearsay a thousand times over.

Really?
How would you know it wasn't if you've never read it since it is actually recorded as a parable? hmmm...
It is not Jesus saying kill them... it is a man who becomes King in the story after he returns to his servants.

How did you get that from the 'parable'? Can you please explain more about this?

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Karnal

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #8 - Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 9:11pm

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:48pm:

The Torah also known as the Pentateuch is the 1st 5 books of the Old Testament... which is the history of Jewish Religion.

Your point would be? That in ancient times people killed people by stoning for reasons we wouldn't today unless we were Muslims. Roll Eyes

Ah, but stoning isn't mentioned in the Koran, Grendel.

Where do you think Muslims got that one from?

FD?

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Grendel

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #9 - Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 11:43pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 8:33pm:

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:48pm:

The Torah also known as the Pentateuch is the 1st 5 books of the Old Testament... which is the history of Jewish Religion.

Your point would be? That in ancient times people killed people by stoning for reasons we wouldn't today unless we were Muslims. Roll Eyes

My point is that the scripture of the Torah is as violent as the Quran. So those who express concerns about Islam, and are directly associate the religion with violence, could be incorrect about the religion itself. Maybe it's not the religion that's the problem?

Human history is violent.
The point is that Christianity has evolved Islam has not. Islam is unalterable.

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Grendel

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #10 - Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 11:45pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 8:34pm:

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 8:04pm:

Aussie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:58pm:

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:52pm:

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:04pm:

This one is in the Bible (sorry, should've said that in the Subject too....)

3) Luke 19:27, "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Isn't this a blanket call to murder by Jesus?

Ah its a parable.... you do know what a parable is right?

Doesn't look like a parable to me. Purports to be a 'direct quote' if there ever can be such a thing in this jurisdiction of hearsay upon hearsay a thousand times over.

Really?
How would you know it wasn't if you've never read it since it is actually recorded as a parable? hmmm...
It is not Jesus saying kill them... it is a man who becomes King in the story after he returns to his servants.

How did you get that from the 'parable'? Can you please explain more about this?

What do you mean "how did I get that from a parable"? It is a parable, its states that clearly in the parable..... there is also another similar parable, there are many parables...

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Grendel

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #11 - Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 11:51pm

Karnal wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 9:11pm:

Grendel wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 7:48pm:

The Torah also known as the Pentateuch is the 1st 5 books of the Old Testament... which is the history of Jewish Religion.

Your point would be? That in ancient times people killed people by stoning for reasons we wouldn't today unless we were Muslims. Roll Eyes

Ah, but stoning isn't mentioned in the Koran, Grendel.

Well TROLL I never said it was did I. Are you saying Muslims do not stone people to death today? Would you like me to post some articles and pictures to correct you?

Where do you think Muslims got that one from?

You tell me YOUR the MUSLIM apparently... who knows nothing about Islam. Or is just a bare faced liar... If you want to be a disingenuous prick and carry on like this waste someone else's time we all know the Koran is not the only book or writings Islam is based on don't we.
BTW I already covered this in explanations about Sharia and hudud. tsk, tsk, ts, oh dear, whatever will you do next eh?

FD?

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Yadda

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #12 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 1:06pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 6:54pm:

FD, please answer and respond to the following verses and my comments:

1) Deuteronomy 13:6 - "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again."

Apostates are killed in the Torah.....

AugCaesarustus,

QUESTION;
Do you believe that the Bible condones, what ISLAM itself 'legitimises' ?

Or do you believe that it is the other way around, that;
'Clearly ISLAMIC law is confirmed and legitimised, by biblical OT law.' ?

AugCaesarustus,

Those persons who were to suffer those OT punishments were covenant breakers.

All of the Hebrews of that day KNEW that it was a serious crime, to break the covenant they had made with their Holy God.

Yadda said....
Quote:

Why must the Hebrews keep God's ordinances and laws ?

Because the Hebrews had freely, willingly, and without coercion, entered into an agreement [a holy covenant] with their God to live by/according to his laws.

Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

The ancient Hebrews were A COVENANT PEOPLE.

They had entered into a solemn covenant with their God.

[n.b.
There was nothing to stop any Hebrew from leaving his people, if he/she did not want to live according to the covenant that his people had entered into, with God.
Any Hebrew could leave his people, and go and live 'in the world', among the Gentiles.
Thereby, becoming a Gentile!
But if the Hebrew person remained living among God's people, and blatantly and intentionally, broke the covenant with God [that he was constrained by], that Hebrew person understood, that he was risking LAWFUL execution, according to the terms of the covenant, with God.]

Leviticus 20:24
...I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

Leviticus 20:26
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

AugCaesarustus,

QUESTION;
Do you think that it is 'unreasonable', to expect someone to honour an agreement/covenant, that they make with us ?

And do you think that it would be 'unfair' or harsh, to be punished according to the agreed terms of an agreement, if we break our agreements ?

??????

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #13 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 1:16pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 6:54pm:

2) Deuteronomy 22: "28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Isn't this condoning and permitting rape?

Not at all.

Deuteronomy 22:28
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

augcaesarustus,

n.b.
In OT law.....

There is no concession that the 'damsel that is a virgin' MUST, consequently, marry that person who took her virginity.

The 'imposition' to marry, is always upon the man, at the pleasure of the woman's family.

--------- >

Exodus 22:16
And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Questions for FD Torah
Reply #14 - Jun 23^rd, 2017 at 1:37pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2017 at 6:54pm:

Apostates are killed in the Torah.....

AugCaesarustus,

Why is it that the God of Israel [in OT law] commanded the Hebrews to be kind people who were strangers ?

And to be kind to people who did not know, and to people who did not worship HIM, the God of Israel ?

[n.b.The God of Israel did NOT command the Hebrews to be kind people who were murderers and serious criminals. The God of Israel command the Hebrews to KILL such people. ]

Yadda said.....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1493888183/39#39
Quote:

.....the ancient Hebrews - HAD NO SANCTION FROM THEIR GOD TO MURDER THOSE WHO WERE NOT HEBREWS - because they were not Hebrews.

AGAIN, the law of the ancient Hebrews [given by their God],
.....prohibited the ancient Hebrews from murdering anyone because they were not Hebrews.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...

Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger...

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...

n.b.
.....and thou shalt love him as thyself

Leviticus 25:47-49
[these verses clearly speak of [and reveal that it was entirely 'lawful'] for Hebrews [themselves] to become bond servants [slaves], to prosperous strangers living among the Hebrews.]

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger, ...Love ye therefore the stranger:
for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 24:17
Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
18 But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger...

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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