Sprintcyclist wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2017 at 10:16am:


Only defending Western Europe from the Soviets during the Cold War, Sprint.

Today, NATO exists as a foot in the door for the US - a role Europeans are quite happy to support, given US support in two world wars.

In the Balkan conflicts in the 1990s, the US bombed Serbia as part of NATO. Back then, the image of white Europeans engaging in genocide and urban warfare was unthinkable. We are generations totally unfamiliar with war. How easily we forget.

Such a conflict today would almost certainly see Russia involved. We're already seeing Russia in Georgia and the Ukraine. We've seen a cyber/propaganda offensive against Sweden. We're seeing them in Syria. Russian involvement is even trans-Atlantic, going as far as intervening in elections in the US.

NATO exists to defend Europe from Soviet, and now, Russian expansion. Europe has managed to resolve most of its other conflicts internally, through free trade and the EU. There are a few exceptions, such as Basque separatism, but for the most part Europe has solved hard conflicts through loans and trade, not bullets. A main reason the Irish troubles have ceased is Ireland's move away from Britain and into the common market.

The Russians see Europe as the cause of their problems. This goes back to the heavy toll of IMF regulations placed on Russia in its transition to capitalism in the 1990s. The IMF demanded privatization and opening up to foreign markets. This saw entire Russian industries fall into the hands of foreigners for a song. While Russian wages dwindled and inflation soared, the cost of food and utilities went through the roof. Russians have never forgotten this.

Putin's response was to "nationalize" Russian industries and big business into the hands of his cronies, the oligarchs. Putin lent them the capital with those very IMF loans. Putin blamed the Western financial elites for stealing Russian industries, and he blamed NATO for the breakup of the Soviet Union for threatening to defend states which had succeeded from the union. Putin's plan is to get these states back.

In the 2000s, Putin used the US's War On Terror to expand Russia's reach, first invading Chechnya in the late 90s. He crafted this aggression into an agreement with George Bush after Sept 11. Since then, he has tested NATO, step by step as he has moved west, into NATO's sphere of influence.

Trump's anti-NATO message suits Putin's cause perfectly. The US, however, will never let NATO go, as Mike Pence has already affirmed. NATO is a valuable foothold in Europe for the US. Trump might be Commander in Chief, but he doesn't have the power to unknit fundamental post-war security agreements, or not yet anyway. While NATO is a rather passé cold war bulwark, it serves other purposes for the US - most notably keeping the US military industrial complex alive and well.

Remember, the US military is an economy of its own, with the GDP and even the population of a small European country. The US military provides jobs, but importantly, it also provides contracts for companies most closely aligned to the US political elite in both major parties. These companies employ lobbyists and fund think tanks to spruik their causes. On the domestic front, the NRA is one influential association that receives funds from arms manufacturers, funds friendly politicians' campaigns and, most importantly, shapes a grass-roots political message that keeps weapons in business.

On the foreign front, Gulf Arabs and Israel are an important part of this game. Kuwait employed Washington lobbyists to get the US to invade Iraq the first time. Saudi and Israeli-aligned bodies fund political campaigns and policy institutes. Even Australia is subject to the US' military industrial complex. We now have two US bases and actively spy on behalf of the US, sharing information as part of the post-war Five Eyes agreement. On the UN, we follow the US' vote on all security matters. We follow the US into most foreign wars, and none of this has anything to do with the defense of Australia or even our interests.

Today, the defense of Europe from the Soviets/Russians is coming back into focus. It might not be a new cold war, but Putin is the biggest state danger to European security. Without NATO, Putin would be free to bring Eastern Europe back into Russian influence, which is his ultimate goal.

The US can pull out of this one and watch Russia emerge as a major foreign power again. This appears to be Trump's plan. Dumb pranks like presenting Germany with a bill for decreasing their military budget does nothing. While it might get a cheer from a few Yanks who don't know what it's about, it reinforces foreign leaders' opinion of Trump as a dud, someone not interested in solutions, just phoniness.

The Karnal thinks he knows what I am. "Bogie's a German you know" he says.
I may have some German DNA from 1500 years or so ago, as many of us could if we have Anglo Saxon descent

But the Karnal has shown us over time what he is.
He is a maker of false statements, ie. a liar, and most probably a promoter of the Islamisation of all western countries. He certainly goes out of his way to defend and negate all and any criticism of the evil that is Islam.

Enquiring mind wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2017 at 11:55am:


Is this a little plagiarise 'Cut & Paste fvvkwit?

Fuzzball wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2017 at 1:32pm:


They do pay it, dear. Their sovereign military budgets have nothing to do with NATO, as every schoolboy knows.

Fuzzball wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2017 at 1:49pm:


NATO doesn't have membership fees, Matty. It's a treaty.

Trump presented the Krauts with a "bill" for cuts the German government made to its defense budget, as every schoolboy, schoolgirl and fvvkwit knows.

Except you, dear.

Fuzzball wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2017 at 2:45pm:


So what did you mean by a "NATO membership" payment? Dues?

Germany's "FAIR SHARE" would be specific to a particular military operation or deployment, Matty. Which one did you have in mind?

We'll do a compare and contrast with Uncles contribution.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/787862/NATO-head-Jens-Stoltenberg-demands-Ge...

Yep, the Krauts have to pay their way, or defend themselves.

Good to have you back, Bogie. Have you come up with any info on the Fatherland's debt to Amerika yet?

We're waiting with baited breath, you know. Do you want to say, or should we hold out for Mr Trump's next Tweet?