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hillary now blaming obama (Read 4649 times)
lee
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Re: hillary now blaming obama
Reply #30 - Feb 2nd, 2017 at 8:19pm
 
John Smith wrote on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 7:19pm:
yeah, I'm sure that if that were true they'd publicly announce it



You mean like this? -

"To be clear, this is not to suggest that in similar circumstances, a person who engaged in this activity would face no consequences. To the contrary, those individuals are often subject to security or administrative sanctions. But that is not what we are deciding now."

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/statement-by-fbi-director-james...

Different rules for different fools. Wink
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John Smith
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Re: hillary now blaming obama
Reply #31 - Feb 2nd, 2017 at 8:23pm
 
he's not talking about criminal charges you twit'


lee wrote on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 8:19pm:
To the contrary, those individuals are often subject to security or administrative sanctions

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lee
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Re: hillary now blaming obama
Reply #32 - Feb 2nd, 2017 at 8:27pm
 
John Smith wrote on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 8:23pm:
he's not talking about criminal charges you twit'


lee wrote on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 8:19pm:
To the contrary, those individuals are often subject to security or administrative sanctions




You don't think security charges are criminal charges? What a fool.
have a look at wiki -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_government_security_breaches

or you can do some other research. You do know what research is? Huh
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John Smith
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Re: hillary now blaming obama
Reply #33 - Feb 2nd, 2017 at 10:01pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 8:27pm:
John Smith wrote on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 8:23pm:
he's not talking about criminal charges you twit'


lee wrote on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 8:19pm:
To the contrary, those individuals are often subject to security or administrative sanctions




You don't think security charges are criminal charges? What a fool.
have a look at wiki -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_government_security_breaches

or you can do some other research. You do know what research is? Huh


you should research your brain, it seems to have failed you


security changes are not criminal charges you fool. They're referring to scrapping or changing their security clearance, suspension, removal from office and a range of other sorts of disciplinary action that the govt. may take when an employee is  careless with secure information, all of which were not an option in Hillary's case. What were they going to do ? sack her? She had already resigned her role and was running for election.

you've really got to take those damn blinkers off.
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lee
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Re: hillary now blaming obama
Reply #34 - Feb 2nd, 2017 at 10:19pm
 
John Smith wrote on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 10:01pm:
security changes are not criminal charges you fool.



Try looking at security CHARGES, not changes. Things like having classified material on your personal server.

Did you look at some of the people incarcerated and the reason why?

John Smith wrote on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 10:01pm:
an employee is  careless with secure information,


You mean like data from her server winding up on Wiener's personal computer?

You really have no idea of the penalties for being somewhat more than lax; do you?

"From the group of 30,000 e-mails returned to the State Department, 110 e-mails in 52 e-mail chains have been determined by the owning agency to contain classified information at the time they were sent or received. Eight of those chains contained information that was Top Secret at the time they were sent; 36 chains contained Secret information at the time; and eight contained Confidential information, which is the lowest level of classification. Separate from those, about 2,000 additional e-mails were “up-classified” to make them Confidential; the information in those had not been classified at the time the e-mails were sent."

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/statement-by-fbi-director-james...

That's what is called "Classified".

Talk about blinkers. Nah. In your case more like, in your case, pig ignorance.
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John Smith
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Re: hillary now blaming obama
Reply #35 - Feb 2nd, 2017 at 10:42pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 10:19pm:
You really have no idea of the penalties for being somewhat more than lax; do you?




for criminal charges to be laid she must have DELIBERATELY intended to violate security, carelessness does not rate criminal charges, it only rates administrative sanctions. ie, suspension, sacking, demotion etc.


from the document you quoted


Although we did not find clear evidence that Secretary Clinton or her colleagues intended to violate laws governing the handling of classified information, there is evidence that they were extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information.



do you have any friggen idea the difference between is ADMINISTRATIVE SANCTIONS and CRIMINAL CHARGES? look them up one day, you might find it enlightening.



You can keep denying the truth all you like, in the end she will never be prosecuted because they cannot prosecute her. There is not enough evidence of intent.

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lee
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Re: hillary now blaming obama
Reply #36 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 10:33am
 
John Smith wrote on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 10:42pm:
for criminal charges to be laid she must have DELIBERATELY intended to violate security, carelessness does not rate criminal charges



So having classified material on a personal server, in breach of protocols, of which she is aware, is mere carelessness. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

They give detailed instructions on what you can and can't do. Removing/moving/copying to you private servers is forbidden.

John Smith wrote on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 10:42pm:
do you have any friggen idea the difference between is ADMINISTRATIVE SANCTIONS and CRIMINAL CHARGES? look them up one day, you might find it enlightening.



Yes John. Obviously much more than you.

John Smith wrote on Feb 2nd, 2017 at 10:42pm:
Although we did not find clear evidence that Secretary Clinton or her colleagues intended to violate laws



Not clear evidence? You know that is not "no evidence" don't you?

So what you are saying is that the State Department is at fault, because they didn't explain to her in words of one syllable or less, that she shouldn't put this material on her personal server. Good luck wit that as a defence.

What should have happened she be charged and then acquitted if found not guilty.
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Re: hillary now blaming obama
Reply #37 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 11:00am
 
The winners can smile and the losers can suit themselves
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Re: hillary now blaming obama
Reply #38 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 11:08am
 
Can't stand the non-white guy, but Hillary Clinton can take all the credit for her loss herself. One Clinton buttwipe as President was enough for the American people, having his lying corrupt wife in office was just too much to ask.
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John Smith
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Re: hillary now blaming obama
Reply #39 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 12:46pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 10:33am:
So having classified material on a personal server, in breach of protocols, of which she is aware, is mere carelessness. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy



yes ... here, because I realised that you are to stupid to do it yourself, I'll help you out. Although in future you will be charged a fee for my time to teach you


Some legal experts say carelessness doesn’t constitute sufficient intent for a prosecutor to bring a case against Clinton.

“There are lots of statutes that deal with the mishandling of classified information, but what they all have in common is that it’s intentionally or knowingly reckless, not careless,” Nancy Gertner, a Harvard Law School lecturer who specialises in criminal law, told Business Insider. “If carelessness were sufficient, we would have indicted half the government.”

Benjamin Wittes, a senior fellow in governance studies at the Brookings Institution, noted on the Lawfare blog that “it’s not uncommon for high-ranking officials to treat classification rules with a lack of deference.”

Gertner made a similar point.

“It would really expose huge numbers of officials to criminal prosecution if we said that carelessness was enough,” she said.


http://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-didnt-the-fbi-charge-hillary-clinton-2016-...


or perhaps

Relevant law is found in several statutes. To begin with, 18 USC, Section 798 provides in salient part: “Whoever knowingly and willfully … [discloses] or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety and interest of the United States [certain categories of classified information] … shall be fined … or imprisoned.”

The most important words in this statute are the ones I have italicized. To violate this statute, Secretary Clinton would have had to know that she was dealing with classified information, and either that she was disclosing it to people who could not be trusted to protect the interests of the United States or that she was handling it in a way (e.g. by not keeping it adequately secure) that was at least arguably prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States.

The statute also provides a definition of what constitutes classified information within the meaning of the subsection described above: “[C]lassified information, means information which, at the time of a violation of this section, is specifically designated by a United States Government Agency for … restricted dissemination.”

Again, the most important words are the ones I have italicized. First, they indicate that the material must have been classified at the time of disclosure. Post hoc classification, which seems to characterize most of the classified material found on Clinton’s server, cannot support an indictment under this section. Second, information no matter how obviously sensitive does not classify itself; it must be officially and specifically designated as such.

Lesser penalties are provided under 18 USC 1924 which provides that an officer of the United States commits a criminal violation if that person possesses classified “documents or materials” and “knowingly removes such … materials without authority and with the intent to retain such … materials at an unauthorized location.”

Prosecutors would also encounter stumbling blocks if they charged Clinton under this law. First, it is unclear whether classified information conveyed in an email message would be considered a document or materials subject to removal. Moreover, with respect to information in messages sent to Clinton, it would be hard to see her as having “knowingly” removed anything, and the same is arguably true of information in messages that she originated. If, however, she were sent attachments that were classified and kept them on her server, this law might apply.

But even if this section did apply, a prosecutor would face difficulties. Heads of agencies have considerable authority with respect to classified information, including authority to approve some exceptions to rules regarding how classified information should be handled and authority to declassify material their agency has classified. It would also be hard to show that Clinton intended to retain any information sent to her if her usual response was to forward the information to another, and if she then deleted the material from her inbox, whether or not it was deleted from her computer.

Where Clinton’s legal position becomes shakier, and where her use of a personal server may enter into the analysis, is with respect to the provisions of Section 32 of the Code of Federal Regulations which provides in Section 2001.42 that persons who have access to classified information are responsible for:

a) Protecting it from persons without authorized access … to include securing it in approved equipment … whenever it is not under the direct control of an authorized person.

b) Meeting safeguarding provisions prescribed by the agency head; and

c) Ensuring that classified information is not communicated over unsecured voice or data circuits

(cont)
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John Smith
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Re: hillary now blaming obama
Reply #40 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 12:49pm
 
It seems clear that any classified information on Clinton’s server was not on approved equipment, though it is less clear whether the information was not under the direct control of an authorized person. Clinton could argue that she was in control of this information while it was on her server and/or that whoever managed her email was authorized by her to control it. The best reading of the regulation is likely to be that the person who ran the server is the person with direct control over messages stored on it. Moreover, no person would be prima facie authorized to have such control unless that person had an appropriate-level security clearance. However, Clinton apparently relied on someone who worked for her at the State Department to set up the system, and he might well have had a top-level security clearance. In addition, as secretary of state, Clinton may have had the authority to approve access to and control of classified information even if the approved person had not been vetted by ordinary clearance processes.

Moreover, these provisions are not criminal statutes. They are part of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) and cannot create crimes beyond those Congress has by statute created. My search revealed no evidence that Congress has made failures to comply with the provisions of 32 CFR 2001 crimes.

Also relevant are several provisions of Executive Order (EO) 15326 that establish standards and basic procedures for classifying and declassifying information, and for marking and protecting it. EO 15326 provides:

Officers and employees of the United States Government … shall be subject to appropriate sanctions if they knowingly, willfully, or negligently

1) disclose to unauthorized persons information properly classified under this order or predecessor orders

It is possible that some of those to whom Clinton sent classified information lacked the clearance needed to access it, but unless it could be shown that Clinton knew she was transmitting classified information or was unreasonably careless in doing so, she would not have run afoul of this subsection. Moreover, while the section lists administrative sanctions that may be meted out to violators, it does not provide for criminal penalties and cannot unless a statute does. In this connection it is interesting to note that 18 USC 798 penalizes disclosures that are knowing or willing but not those that are merely negligent. Finally, it is not clear whether the encompassing word “officers” is meant to include department heads. Ambiguity exists because in language that follows, agency heads are given the final authority to decide on sanctions. They can hardly be expected to sanction themselves.

..............

..............

Should Clinton be indicted?

Based on what has been revealed so far, there is no reason to think that Clinton committed any crimes with respect to the use of her email server, including her handling of classified information. While it is always possible that information not revealed will change this picture, at the moment Clinton’s optimism that she will not be criminally charged appears justified. The same is not necessarily true of those who sent her classified information. If it could be shown that they knowingly acquired information from classified sources and sent it unmarked to an unapproved server, their fate may be less kind than Clinton’s is likely to be.



http://prospect.org/article/why-hillary-wont-be-indicted-and-shouldnt-be-objecti...



now you can flap your gums all you like, but unless you think you know better than the FBI, the attorney general and a magnitude of other  lawyers who actually understand the laws in the USA, you are blowing smoke out of your arse.

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lee
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Re: hillary now blaming obama
Reply #41 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 1:22pm
 
John Smith wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 12:49pm:
1) disclose to unauthorized persons information properly classified under this order or predecessor orders



So the stuff on Anthony Wiener's computer, someone not working for Clinton, was not extremely careless of her?

"The American Prospect

www.prospect.org Proxy  Highlight

Monthly magazine covering politics, culture, and policy from a liberal perspective. Includes well maintained archives."

Well I can see that's politically neutral. Wink


"In addition, as secretary of state, Clinton may have had the authority to approve access to and control of classified information even if the approved person had not been vetted by ordinary clearance processes."

Too funny. We don't need  security agencies to check background. Clinton knows all.

John Smith wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 12:49pm:
but unless it could be shown that Clinton knew she was transmitting classified information or was unreasonably careless in doing so



So she can't read the classification handle at the top and bottom of every page?  And they let her loose on classified documents? Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


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John Smith
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Re: hillary now blaming obama
Reply #42 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 1:33pm
 
lee wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 1:22pm:
Well I can see that's politically neutral. Wink



Grin Grin Grin

fine, find me a conservanut lawyer who agrees with you ... and don't just give me opinions, they need to support it with relevant legisalation

lee wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 1:22pm:
Too funny. We don't need  security agencies to check background. Clinton knows all.



As the secretary of state is is authorised to approve access whether you like it or not. Nothing illegal

lee wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 1:22pm:
So she can't read the classification handle at the top and bottom of every page?  And they let her loose on classified documents? Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


you didn't read anything i put up did you?


...
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lee
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Re: hillary now blaming obama
Reply #43 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 1:40pm
 
John Smith wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 1:33pm:
As the secretary of state is is authorised to approve access whether you like it or not. Nothing illegal



Comprehension issues?

John Smith wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 12:49pm:
In addition, as secretary of state, Clinton may have had the authority


Not a definitive statement. Putting your own slant on what is written.

John Smith wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 1:33pm:
you didn't read anything i put up did you?


Yep. You just can't see the holes I punched into it.
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Re: hillary now blaming obama
Reply #44 - Feb 3rd, 2017 at 1:52pm
 
Fuzzball wrote on Feb 3rd, 2017 at 11:08am:
Can't stand the non-white guy, but Hillary Clinton can take all the credit for her loss herself. One Clinton buttwipe as President was enough for the American people, having his lying corrupt wife in office was just too much to ask.


Yet 3,000,000 more people voted for her than Trump.

What does that tell you?

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