Australian Politics Forum - CAN A MUSLIM BE A LOYAL AMERICAN?

Setanta

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Re: CAN A MUSLIM BE A LOYAL AMERICAN?
Reply #45 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:34am

Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:22am:

Setanta wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:07am:

Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:05am:

Can any religious person be loyal to their country?

Their god comes first no matter what. They are even told they have to love their god more then their own offspring.

Now imagine a country passes a law for the good of its citizens, but that law goes against the tenants of their god.

It's time to stop giving religion a free pass. These people have no idea what god's will is.

If god exists he is far more advanced than we are. Raven is more advanced then a dog. Does the dog presume to know Raven's will?

Sit Ubu sit.

Yes a dog can be trained. Religion has trained us for millennia.

But can the animal know our motivations?

Ahh.. You asked if it could know our will. Don't move the goal posts.

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Raven

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Re: CAN A MUSLIM BE A LOYAL AMERICAN?
Reply #46 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:49am

Setanta wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:34am:

Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:22am:

Setanta wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:07am:

Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:05am:

Can any religious person be loyal to their country?

Their god comes first no matter what. They are even told they have to love their god more then their own offspring.

Now imagine a country passes a law for the good of its citizens, but that law goes against the tenants of their god.

It's time to stop giving religion a free pass. These people have no idea what god's will is.

If god exists he is far more advanced than we are. Raven is more advanced then a dog. Does the dog presume to know Raven's will?

Sit Ubu sit.

Yes a dog can be trained. Religion has trained us for millennia.

But can the animal know our motivations?

Ahh.. You asked if it could know our will. Don't move the goal posts.

Are they not the same thing?

Our will is driven by our motivations.

We want a well trained dog, who will obey us us and not jump on the furniture.

The dog only knows that if it obeys it gets a treat.

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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.

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Setanta

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Re: CAN A MUSLIM BE A LOYAL AMERICAN?
Reply #47 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:56am

Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:49am:

Setanta wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:34am:

Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:22am:

Setanta wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:07am:

Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:05am:

Can any religious person be loyal to their country?

Their god comes first no matter what. They are even told they have to love their god more then their own offspring.

Now imagine a country passes a law for the good of its citizens, but that law goes against the tenants of their god.

It's time to stop giving religion a free pass. These people have no idea what god's will is.

If god exists he is far more advanced than we are. Raven is more advanced then a dog. Does the dog presume to know Raven's will?

Sit Ubu sit.

Yes a dog can be trained. Religion has trained us for millennia.

But can the animal know our motivations?

Ahh.. You asked if it could know our will. Don't move the goal posts.

Are they not the same thing?

Our will is driven by our motivations.

We want a well trained dog, who will obey us us and not jump on the furniture.

The dog only knows that if it obeys it gets a treat.

Has Raven never had a dog? They are a pack animal and are driven by the desire to be accepted by the pack leader. The treat is acceptance. If the will of the lead is for it to sit, it just happy to do so. The leaders motivation matters not, it the acceptance into the pack they desire. Sound familiar?

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Raven

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Re: CAN A MUSLIM BE A LOYAL AMERICAN?
Reply #48 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 2:13am

Setanta wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:56am:

Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:49am:

Setanta wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:34am:

Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:22am:

Setanta wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:07am:

Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:05am:

Can any religious person be loyal to their country?

Their god comes first no matter what. They are even told they have to love their god more then their own offspring.

Now imagine a country passes a law for the good of its citizens, but that law goes against the tenants of their god.

It's time to stop giving religion a free pass. These people have no idea what god's will is.

If god exists he is far more advanced than we are. Raven is more advanced then a dog. Does the dog presume to know Raven's will?

Sit Ubu sit.

Yes a dog can be trained. Religion has trained us for millennia.

But can the animal know our motivations?

Ahh.. You asked if it could know our will. Don't move the goal posts.

Are they not the same thing?

Our will is driven by our motivations.

We want a well trained dog, who will obey us us and not jump on the furniture.

The dog only knows that if it obeys it gets a treat.

Has Raven never had a dog? They are a pack animal and are driven by the desire to be accepted by the pack leader. The treat is acceptance. If the will of the lead is for it to sit, it just happy to do so. The leaders motivation matters not, it the acceptance into the pack they desire. Sound familiar?

Yes it does sound familiar. The point remains that the animal does not understand the will behind the pack leader's actions it just obeys.

The dog can also misinterpret the pack leader's commands.

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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.

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Setanta

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Re: CAN A MUSLIM BE A LOYAL AMERICAN?
Reply #49 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 2:35am

Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 2:13am:

Yes it does sound familiar. The point remains that the animal does not understand the will behind the pack leader's actions it just obeys.

The dog can also misinterpret the pack leader's commands.

The dog certainly understands the will of the pack leader and it would make the dog happy if it can carry it out that request/order. Sit, Ubu sit. The motivation matters not. I have been around dogs all my life, mine and my father's. Mine pets, seriously well trained bull terriers, his, gun dog champions. They do not care about the pack leaders motivation, only to please the pack leader.

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Raven

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Re: CAN A MUSLIM BE A LOYAL AMERICAN?
Reply #50 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 2:50am

Setanta wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 2:35am:

Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 2:13am:

Yes it does sound familiar. The point remains that the animal does not understand the will behind the pack leader's actions it just obeys.

The dog can also misinterpret the pack leader's commands.

The dog certainly understands the will of the pack leader and it would make the dog happy if it can carry it out that request/order. Sit, Ubu sit. The motivation matters not. I have been around dogs all my life, mine and my father's. Mine pets, seriously well trained bull terriers, his, gun dog champions. They do not care about the pack leaders motivation, only to please the pack leader.

But does your dog understand why you want it to sit?

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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.

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Setanta

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Re: CAN A MUSLIM BE A LOYAL AMERICAN?
Reply #51 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 3:01am

Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 2:50am:

Setanta wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 2:35am:

Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 2:13am:

Yes it does sound familiar. The point remains that the animal does not understand the will behind the pack leader's actions it just obeys.

The dog can also misinterpret the pack leader's commands.

The dog certainly understands the will of the pack leader and it would make the dog happy if it can carry it out that request/order. Sit, Ubu sit. The motivation matters not. I have been around dogs all my life, mine and my father's. Mine pets, seriously well trained bull terriers, his, gun dog champions. They do not care about the pack leaders motivation, only to please the pack leader.

But does your dog understand why you want it to sit?

Yes. Because I, as pack leader, want it to. That all that matters. It does not care why I want it to. My first Bullterrier, trained on that school oval in Vic Park, Greg would remember it's name, I would say, sit Jay. It woulld sit, I'd say stay. Jay would stay. I could run all over the oval, then to the other side, say come, she would bolt at me, stop! she would stop in her tracks. Sit, dog would sit. I run off and hide, Jay come! she would then play hide and seek with me. She had no idea what my motivations were, her greatest pleasure was to please me. She would not even eat when food was in front of her until I said so.

She got stolen.

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Raven Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2982 Around	Re: CAN A MUSLIM BE A LOYAL AMERICAN? Reply #52 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 3:09am And therein lies the problem, obey without ever asking why. Can a Muslim be a loyal American? Can a truely religious person be loyal to their country? Can they be loyal to their own children? The answer unfortunately is no.
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Setanta Gold Member Offline \/ Peace man! Posts: 17245 Northern NSW Gender:	Re: CAN A MUSLIM BE A LOYAL AMERICAN? Reply #53 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 3:12am Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 3:09am: And therein lies the problem, obey without ever asking why. Can a Muslim be a loyal American? Can a truely religious person be loyal to their country? Can they be loyal to their own children? The answer unfortunately is no. Sadly... That is why I typed, sound familiar?
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Yadda

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Re: CAN A MUSLIM BE A LOYAL AMERICAN?
Reply #54 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 10:47am

Raven wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:05am:

.......These people have no idea what god's will is.

If god exists he is far more advanced than we are.

Raven is more advanced then a dog.

Does the dog presume to know Raven's will?

Woof, woof.

Some may posit that it is presumptuous, for a man to seek God ['if God exists'], to understand the nature of God ['if God exists'].

But though he [God] be far above us [as we sojourn in his world], in his word ['if the bible is God's word'] God counsels men again and again, to seek after him, and says, that men ought to try to understand his ways....

Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

1 Chronicles 16:10 Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.

1 Chronicles 16:11 Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.

1 Chronicles 22:19 Now set your heart and your soul to seek the LORD your God; arise therefore, and build ye the sanctuary of the LORD God, to bring the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and the holy vessels of God, into the house that is to be built to the name of the LORD.

2 Chronicles 11:16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.

2 Chronicles 12:14 And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.

2 Chronicles 14:4 And commanded Judah to seek the LORD God of their fathers, and to do the law and the commandment.

2 Chronicles 20:3 And Jehoshaphat feared, and set himself to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.

2 Chronicles 20:4 And Judah gathered themselves together, to ask help of the LORD: even out of all the cities of Judah they came to seek the LORD.

Ezra 6:21 And the children of Israel, which were come again out of captivity, and all such as had separated themselves unto them from the filthiness of the heathen of the land, to seek the LORD God of Israel, did eat,

Psalms 34:10 The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing.

Psalms 105:3 Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.

Psalms 105:4 Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

Proverbs 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Isaiah 9:13 For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts.

Isaiah 31:1 Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!

Isaiah 51:1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.

Jeremiah 50:4 In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the LORD their God.

Hosea 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Hosea 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Amos 5:6 Seek the LORD, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, and there be none to quench it in Bethel.

Zechariah 8:21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.

Zechariah 8:22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.

Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

We ought to seek God, however imperfect our efforts may be

Psalms 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1214199336/431#431

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Lord Herbert

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Re: CAN A MUSLIM BE A LOYAL AMERICAN?
Reply #55 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 10:53am

aquascoot wrote on Jan 30^th, 2017 at 10:37am:

A loyal american is anyone who gets behind Trump and works with him to make america great.
this would include some muslims for sure.

marla and greg could not be loyal americans.

i would deport marla.

Yes, back to Ireland where her ancestors heralded from. Bog Ireland on the west coast where the peat is.

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Marla Gold Member Offline A joint a day keeps the MAGA away Posts: 14722 Colorado Gender:	Re: CAN A MUSLIM BE A LOYAL AMERICAN? Reply #56 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 11:05am Terni, Italy you racist hippie. What an utter shithole It's where my corrupt Catholic upbringing has its roots. Than I discovered Marxism and was truly liberated from the farce that is Christianity.
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Lord Herbert

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Re: CAN A MUSLIM BE A LOYAL AMERICAN?
Reply #57 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 11:16am

Terni? Forget it.

No river, no lakes, no sea ... and it's probably an earthquake area too. And it's way too far from any of the big cities.

Republican Ireland has its charms if the documentaries I've seen are anything to go by. You could do worse than live in one of the more beautiful parts there.

Would I recommend Australia? Probably not.

White Anglo/Irish/American migration to Australia hasn't been that successful. Huge numbers of Brits returned to the UK almost immediately, and in my 55 years here I can count the number of Americans I've come across on ... two fingers.

The problem is that the Brits and Americans already live in First World circumstances before coming here, and so the reasons for staying are not anything like as attractive as it is for Third World immigrants.

A previous government actually initiated an inquiry to find the reasons why so many migrants were returning home after a few years.

With the Brits it was the hot weather.

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« Last Edit: Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 11:41am by Lord Herbert »

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Big Donger Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 101714	Re: CAN A MUSLIM BE A LOYAL AMERICAN? Reply #58 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 12:11pm Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 11:16am: Would I recommend Australia? Probably not. Do you know what you are, Herb? You're a globalist, a man of the world. Now a nationalist would recommend Australia, but you're too sophisticated for that sort of provincial jingoism. Your loyalties lie elsewhere.
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