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The growing Centrelink debt scandal (Read 41801 times)
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #300 - Jan 18th, 2017 at 10:16am
 
Valkie wrote on Jan 18th, 2017 at 6:20am:
Unforgiven wrote on Jan 17th, 2017 at 7:06pm:
The example of the 72 year old woman with a house and $ 580,000 cash exemplifies why the system needs to be means tested.

The average life span of Australians is 82, which means this woman will probably not live more than another ten years.

If the house is worth $500,000 she should sell and she has $1 million plus which would giver her $100,000 a year without any investment income and capital growth.

She doesn't need the pension and could rent and live comfortably for the rest of her life by self financing.

In fact she could live extravagantly and piss it up over 5 years and then fall back on the pension.

One of the problems that this exposes is that people who have been saving and accumulating all their lives don't like spending their money.



So.....because one does not advance themselves and decides to either work for a shite wage or has not the skills to be more than a burger flipper, those that have the drive to advance themselves are to be punished.

The burger flipper, through laziness or incompetence never saves any money, pays less or no tax and then retires happily on a TAXPAYER funded pension.

But the engineer who has worked to advance himself, paid shiteloads of tax and amassed a sizable nest egg gets nothing?

Sounds fair.

But there are some holes in this argument.
Firstly, the family home was probably purchased 30 plus years ago.
With interest it has cost three, four maybe five times what it was purchased for.
The person has lived in it all their lives, know the area and are comfortable living there.

In the case of my Auntie 45 years.
Her husband has dementia, they are close to doctors and the shopping center and have friends and family close to them.
To move would be a death sentence, the husband would get lost or be in totally unfamiliar territory.
She would loose the help her family and friends give (so would have to be supported by paid help)
She would loose her pension and be expected to live on her savings, which after selling her house and combining everything would amount to less than the pension when stretched out over 20 years.

This whole exercise is a penny pinching, immoral, dirty, nasty trick propagated by a lazy incompetent greedy government.

If all politicians, public servants and wealthy hangers on were to have to pass the same asset test as normal Australians, there would be squillions of dollars so that every person in Australia could get a pension.

But they will not let go of their multi-million dollar perks, pensions, free flights and such.
Much better to attack the already impoverished pensioners.

These scum deserve nothing, what have they ever done that warrants such excess?   ever?

I will have few assets when I retire.
I have 10 years to divest myself of any savings, shares and investments.
I would rather put the money in a tin can than have Govco assess it and stop my pension.
After all, to get the amount in that I can get off the pension in interest, Id need to have much more than I currently have without gradually diminishing my financial base.

Why should I pay for loosers?
Why should I fund bludgers?
Why should I have to pay tax all my life and get nothing back, zero, nada?

I have paid more tax than many of these dickheads have ever earned, I deserve, NO demand a fair share back.

The current regime of means testing everything is a very strong disincentive to save.

People who retire with savings get penalised. People who spend everything do not.

Even during the working life, involuntary unemployment can strike anyone. If it does, anyone with savings has to spend them before getting any help. This is the liquid assets threshold, and this threshold is half of what it was 23 years ago. Not purchasing power, raw dollars. Instead of being indexed to inflation, it has simply been cut then left alone. It's wrong. It's now one-third the value it had in 1994.

Means tests are just penny pinching nonsense that in many cases costs more to administer than it saves.

We could save a lot of money by scrapping the means tests and tax concessions, and simply paying everyone of pension age the aged pension - and restore the pension age to 65.
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #301 - Jan 18th, 2017 at 10:17am
 
Dnarever wrote on Jan 17th, 2017 at 7:54pm:
You do know that nobody is getting around 10% these days,



i don't think he's referring to earnings, I think he's talking about splitting the worth by the estimated 10 yrs ($1m by 10 gives her $100 000 per annum) chances are she probably wouldn't spend that anyway so it'll most likely last her longer than the ten years.

rhino wrote on Jan 17th, 2017 at 8:44pm:
of course if she doesnt die at the age of 82 then theres a problem isnt here? What do you suggest, making her into soylent green?


then she would be entitled to the pension
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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.
 
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #302 - Jan 18th, 2017 at 11:10am
 
Page flip ..
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #303 - Jan 18th, 2017 at 11:10am
 
.. and again ...
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #304 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 2:00pm
 
And it just keeps getting worse.

Centrelink: Letter claims staff told to ignore errors in data-matching program

Quote:
Key points:
* Letter claims Centrelink directed staff to ignore errors in debt calculations
* Anonymous letter written by someone who says they work for Centrelink
* The Department of Human Services says the claims are not accurate

Centrelink staff working on the agency's controversial debt claw-back program have been told to ignore errors in calculations and push through debts they know are incorrect, according to an anonymous letter written by a person claiming to be a Centrelink compliance officer.

Activist group GetUp! released the eight-page letter it received from a person claiming to have worked on Centrelink's automated data-matching project, known as the Online Compliance Intervention.

"What is known to date is literally the tip of the iceberg compared to the true scope of the deliberate wrongful actions that are being deployed under the department's Online Compliance Intervention (OCI) review process, which is raising debts that are incorrect for far more reasons than anyone outside the organisation knows about," the letter said.

Welfare groups are pushing the Federal Government to suspend the project after a raft of welfare recipients claimed the automated system incorrectly matched their reported income with their tax records.

Letter claims 'multitude of errors'


The anonymous letter said a small percentage of the debt notices require manual intervention by compliance officers.

"And this is where we as officers are seeing the multitude of errors that are leading to debts being raised incorrectly," it said.

"Compliance officers like myself are bound by tight rules that direct us to leave duplicated income, not correct debts based on income already provided by customers, leave in income that is legally not assessable, not correct debts for income that has been declared and coded to other parts of our system based on how we break up income … and leave in information that is doubled up."

The author said they wrote the letter "because I along with so many of my co-workers have tried to stop the wrong that is being done to thousands of our customers on a daily basis and I can no longer live with what we are doing".

7.30 has been unable to establish the identity of the author of the letter, nor verify all its claims.

However, several past and present staff members have corroborated parts of the letter, including the claim that OCI system is incorrectly tallying up payments that are usually treated as non-assessable income.

"It puts back in all the income that is exempt from assessment and staff are not allowed to fix it by removing it," the letter said.

"Debt[s] are being raised solely on a year or more of exempt income."

GetUp! campaign director Mark Connelly defended his organisation's decision to release the letter without verifying its claims.

"On our own, we don't have the resources to confirm every claim in the letter," he said.

"By publicly releasing the letter today we allow journalists to confirm the claims with their sources, inspire other sources to come forward with critical information, apply pressure for an immediate parliamentary inquiry, and allow the Government to confirm or deny any of the claims in the letter, among other avenues of investigation."


(continued)
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #305 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 2:01pm
 
Quote:
Government says claims are not accurate


The Department of Human Services has denied several of the claims in the email.

It said recipients were not assessed on the basis of doubled income.

"We give those who receive a request for information an opportunity to review, confirm or change these details in the online system," the department's general manager Hank Jongen said in a statement.

However, this does not deal with the key claim in the letter that recipients are often unable to identify that doubled income has been included in the calculation.

The department also said non-assessable income was not included in debt assessments.

However, 7.30 has already reported the experience of George Birkett, who had more than $7,000 in non-assessable income erroneously included in his debt assessment.

This was removed after his story was aired on the program.

The department also insists Paid Parental Leave assessments are made in accordance with the applicable legislation.

"Some of our staff believe that intensive one-on-one management of recipients is always required ... some staff do not welcome technology driven change," Mr Jongen said.

"We will continue to work with staff to explain how the system operates and the role they play."

The department published their full response to the claims on their website.

Letter claims compliance officers instructed to ignore errors


The letter also claims compliance officers have been instructed to ignore errors generated by the OCI's "fuzzy matching logic", which compares employer names reported to Centrelink with the names welfare recipients have reported to the Australian Tax Office (ATO).

The letter claims the system is duplicating recipients' estimated income when there is a mismatch between the two company names.

"The official response was that these are correct and no one is permitted to fix them," the letter said.

The letter includes what purports to be an internal memorandum to staff, justifying how similar employer names will not be picked up by the OCI system.

The memo said "in these cases the system is working". It instructs staff where they see a failure to match similar employer names not to alter the outcome. Instead they should direct the welfare recipient online, and they should not report the error to the internal OCI Helpdesk.

The letter also said:

* Age pensioners who received termination payments (which are exempt) are receiving debt assessments that wrongly include those termination payments.
* Paid Parental Leave recipients have wrongly had that income considered assessable income in their debt assessments. (7.30 understands the rules around exempt PPL changed recently and it is now assessable income.)
* Some debt notices are entirely erroneous: "Debts are being raised solely on a year or more of exempt income." And in some instances "we are recovering more money than the customer was ever paid".
* Recipients who dispute the debt notice but also tick a box indicating they accept the employer income assessed by OCI will not have that income adjusted, even when a compliance officer identifies that much of the income assessed was exempt income.
* Customers who raise disputes will only have the specific matters they dispute adjusted in their favour, even when compliance staff identify other errors in the assessment.
* If compliance staff do attempt to correct errors they identify, their "work will returned as wrong and we will have to cancel the corrections".

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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #306 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 2:03pm
 
I would take this anonymous letter with a grain of salt until there's more corroborating evidence. The best way to get to the bottom of this whole scandal is to force Centrelink's senior managers to appear before a Royal Commission or a Senate inquiry.
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #307 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 2:50pm
 
Valkie wrote on Jan 18th, 2017 at 6:20am:
But the engineer who has worked to advance himself, paid shiteloads of tax and amassed a sizable nest egg gets nothing?

Why do you need taxpayer funded welfare if you have a sizable nest egg?

Valkie wrote on Jan 18th, 2017 at 6:20am:
Firstly, the family home was probably purchased 30 plus years ago.
With interest it has cost three, four maybe five times what it was purchased for.

It's now worth ten times what it was purchased for.

Valkie wrote on Jan 18th, 2017 at 6:20am:
I will have few assets when I retire.
I have 10 years to divest myself of any savings, shares and investments.
I would rather put the money in a tin can than have Govco assess it and stop my pension.
After all, to get the amount in that I can get off the pension in interest, Id need to have much more than I currently have without gradually diminishing my financial base.

Valkie is addicted to welfare; free money.

Valkie wrote on Jan 18th, 2017 at 6:20am:
Why should I pay for loosers?
Why should I fund bludgers?
Why should I have to pay tax all my life and get nothing back, zero, nada?

I have paid more tax than many of these dickheads have ever earned, I deserve, NO demand a fair share back.


If Valkie has paid more tax than these people have ever earned, either Valkie has pissed it against the wall or he is telling porkies. At current rates it would imply Valkie can currently earn ~$ 180,000 a year to pay more tax than a minimum wage person would earn.

Valkie has also recently boasted to have been consulting for > $ 1000 a day.

Show us the money Valkie!

Valkie has boasted that he has earned a high salary and has paid more tax than his targets have ever earned.

Now Valkie is crying poor and whining that he can't get the dole and he is complaining about those who can get the dole.

Show us the money you have squirreled away Valkie.

Stop the whining and suck it in Valkie.
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« Last Edit: Jan 19th, 2017 at 5:48pm by Unforgiven »  

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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #308 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 2:56pm
 
Unforgiven wrote on Jan 19th, 2017 at 2:50pm:
Valkie wrote on Jan 18th, 2017 at 6:20am:
But the engineer who has worked to advance himself, paid shiteloads of tax and amassed a sizable nest egg gets nothing?


Why do you need taxpayer funded welfare if you have a sizable nest egg?

Valkie wrote on Jan 18th, 2017 at 6:20am:
Firstly, the family home was probably purchased 30 plus years ago.
With interest it has cost three, four maybe five times what it was purchased for.


It's now worth ten times what it was purchased for.

Valkie wrote on Jan 18th, 2017 at 6:20am:
I will have few assets when I retire.
I have 10 years to divest myself of any savings, shares and investments.
I would rather put the money in a tin can than have Govco assess it and stop my pension.
After all, to get the amount in that I can get off the pension in interest, Id need to have much more than I currently have without gradually diminishing my financial base.


Valkie is addicted to welfare; free money.

Valkie wrote on Jan 18th, 2017 at 6:20am:
Why should I pay for loosers?
Why should I fund bludgers?
Why should I have to pay tax all my life and get nothing back, zero, nada?

I have paid more tax than many of these dickheads have ever earned, I deserve, NO demand a fair share back.


If Valkie has paid more tax than these people have ever earned, either Valkie has pissed it against the wall or he is telling porkies. At current rates it would imply Valkie can currently earn ~$ 180,000 a year to pay more tax than a minimum wage person would earn.

Valkie has also recently boasted to have been consulting for > $ 1000 a day.

Show us the money Valkie!

Valkie has boasted that he has earned a high salary and has paid more tax than his targets have ever earned.

Now Valkie is crying poor and whining that he can't get the dole and he is complaining about those who can get the dole.

Show us the money you have squirreled away Valkie.

Stop the whining and suck it in Valkie.

Why should elderly people be required to report their income to Centrelink once a fortnight so Centrelink can confiscate half of it?

How much money is wasted on this compliance bureaucracy?
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #309 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 2:58pm
 
Tudge needs to resign , this is beyond farcical
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #310 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 3:33pm
 
Lib MPs and One Nation MPs got negative things to say about the government handling of centrelink debt.  Maybe those coalition supporters should start thinking?
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #311 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 5:52pm
 
The welfare claw-back debacle is due to the incompetence of public servants exacerbated by the insensitivity of politicians.
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #312 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 6:10pm
 
Its time wrote on Jan 19th, 2017 at 2:58pm:
Tudge needs to resign , this is beyond farcical


You would think at the very least Mal would tell Tudge to suspend debt notices until the ombudsman has finished his report. Instead Mal is happy to sit back and bleed away votes this is Abbott level stupidity.
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #313 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 6:25pm
 
Looks like a Senate inquiry is almost certain. The ALP, Greens, NXT and One Nation are all in favour.

Centrelink warns staff against leaking as push for Senate inquiry gathers force

Quote:
Centrelink has warned staff that leaking information may constitute a criminal offence as a Senate inquiry into its controversial debt recovery system now appears all but certain.

One Nation and the Nick Xenophon Team confirmed to Guardian Australia that they would support an inquiry, easily giving the opposition and the Greens the numbers.

The automated system has been the subject of a series of damaging leaks since mid-December, when a compliance officer told Guardian Australia that only a fraction of the debts being issued were genuine.

On Tuesday the Department of Human Services people services manager, Adrian Hudson, sent an email to staff, reminding them of the consequences of improper leaking.

The memo did not directly reference the debt recovery system but warned public servants that they would not be protected if they leaked information externally.

Hudson told workers they would only be protected if they disclosed information in accordance with the Public Interests Disclosures Act. “Disclosures made under the public interest disclosure arrangements and ‘leaking’ information are not the same thing,” he said.

“Outside of the PID Act, an employee who makes a disclosure externally will not be protected and may in fact be committing a criminal offence or be in breach of the APS Code of Conduct.”

The Community and Public Sector Union has hit back at the department, saying it was trying to keep problems with the debt recovery system secret.

Its deputy national president, Lisa Newman, described the memo as an “extraordinary broadside at DHS staff” who were working on the frontline to deal with the government’s debt collection mess.

Newman said it was “especially galling” because the controversial system was the result of decisions by senior management and the federal government.

“DHS staff work hard to help ordinary Australians and are frustrated that the agency has been run into the ground and that service standards are totally unacceptable,” she said. “Rather than work with the CPSU and our members to fix these problems, DHS management is trying to keep its many problems secret.

“Adrian Hudson could be better spending his time than monstering staff with threats. Instead, perhaps he could spend some time listening to their suggestions on how to fix this situation so that people who’ve done nothing wrong stop being sent debt notices.”

Earlier on Wednesday, the auditor general rejected a request to investigate the Centrelink system.

The Australian National Audit Office said it did not want to duplicate the work of a separate investigation into the controversial system now being conducted by the commonwealth ombudsman, but would consider the issue again next financial year.

“I have consulted with the Ombudsman regarding the scope of his own motion investigation and do not intend to commence an audit while the Ombudsman’s investigation is underway,” the auditor general, Grant Hehir, wrote to Labor’s Linda Burney on Wednesday.

“Nonetheless, I will consider the inclusion of an audit in the development of my 2017-18 Audit Work Program.”


(continued)
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #314 - Jan 19th, 2017 at 6:25pm
 
Quote:
On the proposed Senate inquiry, a spokesman for One Nation senator Brian Burston confirmed that his party would offer its support.

The Nick Xenophon Team has been critical of the debt recovery system and Xenophon told Guardian Australia on Wednesday the party would support the inquiry.

On Wednesday Anglicare became the latest organisation to call for the suspension of the system on Wednesday, joining unions, lawyers, disability advocates, welfare rights centres, the Australian Council of Social Services and other charities.

Anglicare Australia’s executive director, Kasy Chambers, said the system was a “step towards criminalisation of poverty and disadvantage”, because it shifted the onus on to individuals to prove they do not owe Centrelink a debt but made it difficult to respond appropriately through Centrelink’s overloaded systems.

“It is the failure to take the impact of these processes seriously and to treat everyone concerned with respect which concerns us,” Chambers said.

“Mistakes will be made in all complex systems, however it reflects particularly poorly on government ministers who reject out of hand evidence of the inaccuracy of this clumsy process and the distress it has caused,” she said.

Earlier on Wednesday Malcolm Turnbull defended Centrelink’s debt recovery system as “quite appropriate”. The prime minister said Centrelink was simply identifying discrepancies in reported income, as it had always done.

“The letters that go out in the first instance are simply saying there is a discrepancy,” Turnbull said. “Your employer says you earn this and you say you earned that. Can you explain what that discrepancy is? That is entirely responsible and appropriate.

“Obviously it is important to make sure that the recipient gets the letter and you have seen the measures that the minister, Alan Tudge, has announced.”

But the data-matching process has been roundly criticised for its inaccuracies, which, with reduced human oversight, are causing vulnerable Australians to be wrongly issued with debts.

Protests are being planned across the country, including one outside the Centrelink office in Redfern, Sydney, on Wednesday afternoon. The National Union of Students plans further protests in major cities in March.

A small group of protesters also staged a sit-in at Tudge’s electorate office on Wednesday, handing him a debt notice for $300m – the amount the government has identified in recoverable debts.

Tudge was not at the office. The protesters played mock Centrelink hold music through loudspeakers, which included messages like: “At Centrelink we’re paranoid that you’re stealing from us. We can’t really prove it, so we’re going to steal from you.”

Police attended and the protesters agreed to leave.

In Tasmania, welfare and community service groups have joined together to create a disaster relief fund to help support those affected. The fund is designed to help those issued with debts to navigate Centrelink’s systems to lodge a dispute.

Labor and the Greens have both pledged to push for a Senate inquiry into the system, while the commonwealth ombudsman’s office has reportedly begun scheduling meetings with welfare groups.

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