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The growing Centrelink debt scandal (Read 41922 times)
Grendel
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #180 - Jan 9th, 2017 at 5:03pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 1:26pm:
What I have said, roach, is that the manual checking has been removed and the avalanche of threatening letters to people that don’t owe Centrelink anything started.

I have said this many times because you are so rightarded you cannot admit the Libs ever make a mistake or are guilty of fraud re TA etc.

So rightarded it is pathetic, roach.

Best you shut up rather than look more stupid...  the staff cuts are not the problem the system is.
You are such a computer illiterate.
If the system was set up properly in the first place we wouldn't have a problem. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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Grendel
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #181 - Jan 9th, 2017 at 5:06pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 1:28pm:
Grendel wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 1:15pm:
My advice to the Government and the idiots Porter and Tudge...  and yes I've called them idiots before... scrap the LABOR SYSTEM of current automated Debt Recovery....  until you get it to work properly and simplify the Centrelink systems so the staff can actually make heads and tails of the total mess that it is.

No, reinstitute the manual checking. Removing the manual checking is the cause of the problems now.

No its not YOU IDIOT...
Labor decided to automate things to free up staff, that was a good idea, you don't automate things to create more work for existing staff or so you have to hire more staff.  Ask an adult.
Problem is their system is faulty....  ask Wilkie, he agrees with me. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Jovial Monk
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #182 - Jan 9th, 2017 at 5:16pm
 
The Labor system had manual checking, the Lib system doesn’t. The Libs system is designed to rip money off the defenceless.
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Jovial Monk
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #183 - Jan 9th, 2017 at 5:17pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 5:03pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on Jan 9th, 2017 at 1:26pm:
What I have said, roach, is that the manual checking has been removed and the avalanche of threatening letters to people that don’t owe Centrelink anything started.

I have said this many times because you are so rightarded you cannot admit the Libs ever make a mistake or are guilty of fraud re TA etc.

So rightarded it is pathetic, roach.

Best you shut up rather than look more stupid...  the staff cuts are not the problem the system is.
You are such a computer illiterate.
If the system was set up properly in the first place we wouldn't have a problem. Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

I never ever mentioned staff cuts. Staff cuts are not the problem. A predatory attitude by the Libs and lack of manual checking has caused the problem.
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #184 - Jan 9th, 2017 at 5:32pm
 
Coming soon to a theatre near you!.....


Invasion Of The Data Matchers...


starring..

Alan Tudge

Christian Porter

and

Fat Hank Jongen as Jabba.....
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #185 - Jan 9th, 2017 at 7:59pm
 
'Ere's me post on another forum:-


One guarantee of a free society is a free exchange of information. 
- John Fitzgerald Kennedy.


So now we see the picture entire for the drinking.   

First Colonel C'link unliterally creates a new set of rules by which it alone wishes to operate, without any notice to its customers or any announcement in any way, i.e. rather than looking at income over the accepted for many years (and possibly statutory) period of two weeks, one two week period at a time - the Good Colonel now wishes to view the entire earnings of any of its customers over the full twelve months financial year – and then wishes to re-calculate their Entitlements under Social Security.

In order to achieve this end, they take the tax information willingly and freely lodged with the Australian Tax Office for a full year's earnings, under their 'new' data matching system.

Then, without notice, they re-calculate any person's annual earnings and determine that this individual averaged a certain amount of income over that twelve months – rather than viewing (as above) their income received over each two week period whilst in receipt of Social Security payments.

Their letters of demand offer two weeks in which to resolve the matter or face further action, including a 'collection fee' of 10%, and possible criminal action, as well as suspension or forced re-payment from current benefits.

The Good Colonel refuses to allow discussion or even a viewing of the affected individual's personal reporting record, or even to accept that a mistake may have been made, and that there is a chance of resolution by a proper audit.

They do this to countless thousands just before Christmas, meaning that the individuals concerned have little to no chance of even beginning to collect their wits, let alone their information needed to correctly resolve this situation.

On top of that, it is not possible for the affected individual(s) to gather their OWN INFORMATION lodged with the ATO, by their employer(s) in accordance with law, every pay period.  The ATO will say that is protected information under the Privacy Act or whatever, and it is now the property of the ATO and NOT that individual.

Thus the affected individual is left with no possible avenue of mounting a defence – unless they are fortunate enough to retain all their pay slips in an orderly fashion (who does that these days?  People rely on their employer to keep correct records and on the ATO AND Centrelink to deal with them properly).

The affected individual MAY lodge a 'Freedom of Information' claim with the ATO – OR take the matter of access to personal information to the appropriate court... but either of these actions will NOT occur BEFORE the time limit demanded by Colonel Clink has expired – meaning the person will be stung with a 'debt' they have had no means of defending, plus costs, plus interest, and will have no choice but to pay or suffer sanction by a court of law and pursuit by bill collectors.

As I said – this entire issue should fall at the first minute in a court hearing, since it has no remote association with Natural Justice.

This approach – of Colonel Clink arbitrarily positing that income will now be looked at over a full financial year, and even beyond, means that Centrelink, under direct orders from this government, is arbitrarily and unilaterally decreeing, without recourse to historical usage, regulation or possibly law, that SOCIAL SECURITY IS NOW A LOAN, that must be repaid on demand.  I have every expectation that this is the thin edge of the wedge to forcing on the public the concept that an Age Pension is now also a 'loan' due upon death.




(Copy forwarded to Andrew Wilkie – thank you, Colonel, for your actions)...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Jovial Monk
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #186 - Jan 10th, 2017 at 5:32am
 
As I said:

Quote:
Humans did the job extremely well. A former Centrelink worker with 30 years experience says they would "look at start dates for employment that customers had declared, see if it was the same for the employer [using Tax Office records] and roughly work out if it lined up."

"If it looked as if a person had possibly been overpaid they would write to the customer and ask them to call and tease out where the discrepancy was, and ask for proof, if it was still available, in the form of things such as payslips. If the customer didn't have them and it looked like there was a possibility of an overpayment, they would write to the employer to ask for the information. If evidence was collected that the customer had not declared the income correctly and a debt existed, then the debt calculator would raise the debt in accordance with the legislation and the customer would be written to."

What's important in this description is the humans charged with applying the law didn't issue debt notices unless they had evidence that a debt existed. To do so without evidence would be to break the law.


http://www.smh.com.au/comment/how-centrelink-unleashed-a-weapon-of-math-destruct...
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Jovial Monk
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #187 - Jan 10th, 2017 at 12:58pm
 
People who have been unfairly targeted with inaccurate Centrelink debts could have grounds to sue the government, according to the Australian Lawyers Alliance. Now we’re talking!


https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jan/10/centrelink-crisis-people-...


BRING IT ON!
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Bam
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #188 - Jan 10th, 2017 at 1:50pm
 
Quote:
Porter confirmed the averaging out process was taking place, but told ABC radio on Monday that it only occurred if an individual did not respond to Centrelink’s initial correspondence within three weeks.

“If you do not respond to the original correspondence, at all within that 21-day period or ask for an extension, then it will be the case that the ATO estimate will be the preferred reporting and there will be an averaging out process,” Porter said.

Giving people just 21 days to respond during the Christmas period when many businesses are shut and many people are taking holidays - this is deliberately designed to cause as much damage as possible.
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Jovial Monk
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #189 - Jan 10th, 2017 at 1:59pm
 
Bam wrote on Jan 10th, 2017 at 1:50pm:
Quote:
Porter confirmed the averaging out process was taking place, but told ABC radio on Monday that it only occurred if an individual did not respond to Centrelink’s initial correspondence within three weeks.

“If you do not respond to the original correspondence, at all within that 21-day period or ask for an extension, then it will be the case that the ATO estimate will be the preferred reporting and there will be an averaging out process,” Porter said.

Giving people just 21 days to respond during the Christmas period when many businesses are shut and many people are taking holidays - this is deliberately designed to cause as much damage as possible.


Calculated thuggery by a shambles of a government. I guess they are desperate to be seen to be doing something to reduce the deficit because if we lose the 9As when the Libs are in power then they will lose their perceived “better economic managers.”
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #190 - Jan 10th, 2017 at 2:26pm
 
Has anyone else noticed this expression 'raise a debt' creeping into this discussion?  It is being used as if it is a legal term when in fact it is a nothing.

Debts are not 'raised.'  They are incurred, and until the alleged debt is admitted or proven, it is just a claim made by one person against another, like any other allegation.

I wonder how much of this 'raised debt' has been factored in as real, and actually coming into Government coffers in the current budget?
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #191 - Jan 10th, 2017 at 2:47pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 10th, 2017 at 2:26pm:
Has anyone else noticed this expression 'raise a debt' creeping into this discussion?  It is being used as if it is a legal term when in fact it is a nothing.

Debts are not 'raised.'  They are incurred, and until the alleged debt is admitted or proven, it is just a claim made by one person against another, like any other allegation.

I wonder how much of this 'raised debt' has been factored in as real, and actually coming into Government coffers in the current budget?

I think the term that fits best is "alleged debt". It's not a real debt until it is proven.

If it's fair to call these "debts" without qualification, it's also fair to say that companies are committing tax evasion costing over $30 billion of tax annually. In reality, both are unproven, therefore both are allegations.

Post-truth!
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oh dear
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #192 - Jan 10th, 2017 at 3:52pm
 
I have a question, if Centrelink sent me a letter claiming I owed money and I believed I didnt I would elect

to have the matter heard in court.Dosent the onus of  proof fall upon the accuser in this case the govt?

if the claim is false how can they prove it?
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #193 - Jan 10th, 2017 at 4:01pm
 
oh dear wrote on Jan 10th, 2017 at 3:52pm:
I have a question, if Centrelink sent me a letter claiming I owed money and I believed I didnt I would elect

to have the matter heard in court.Dosent the onus of  proof fall upon the accuser in this case the govt?

if the claim is false how can they prove it?


Caveat:  I am nowhere near familiar with the specific legislation/regulations.

In the ordinary course, the onus of proof is on the party claiming the debt.

However, in some instances, legislation/regulations provide for something to be averred.  This means the claiming party can 'aver' a fact, and the onus then shifts to the 'defendant' to disprove the averment.
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Re: The growing Centrelink debt scandal
Reply #194 - Jan 10th, 2017 at 4:25pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 10th, 2017 at 4:01pm:
oh dear wrote on Jan 10th, 2017 at 3:52pm:
I have a question, if Centrelink sent me a letter claiming I owed money and I believed I didnt I would elect

to have the matter heard in court.Dosent the onus of  proof fall upon the accuser in this case the govt?

if the claim is false how can they prove it?


Caveat:  I am nowhere near familiar with the specific legislation/regulations.

In the ordinary course, the onus of proof is on the party claiming the debt.

However, in some instances, legislation/regulations provide for something to be averred.  This means the claiming party can 'aver' a fact, and the onus then shifts to the 'defendant' to disprove the averment.

Nice: sounds like a real humdinger 2017 start for Malcolm !!

Shocked
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