Australian Politics Forum - Typical regressive left gets it wrong again

Gordon

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Gordon
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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #60 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:43pm

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:11pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:58pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:09pm:

Neo Nazis turn up for a protest leftist rent a crowd will always be there and almost always outnumbering Neo Nazis.

the leftist rent-a-crowds are almost entirely non-muslim. What you lot term the regressive left. Apologists, if you will. I must say I am struggling to think of any muslim-initiated counter-protest against anti-Islam protesters. So why can't we apply the same logic and say muslims are apologists for Islamophobia?

Quote:

Are you so unaware of your co-religionists that their protests are always a surprise, unknown and unsuspected by the vast majority, the many millions of moderates?

Protest secret, singular. Which is kind of a pertinent point here - it is literally the only one of its kind in Australia in the entire history of muslim settlement in Australia. So yeah, I think anyone who opposes them - muslim or non-muslim can be forgiven for not anticipating that one.

When cultists in the name of Islam commit atrocities in France or wherever it is beyond the ability of the vast majority of moderates to hold a gathering with not in my name signs? Cos that is the sort of effort needed to counter the oft mentioned tiny majority. And it needs a sustained effort. A token twenty won't cut it.

Meh, it's your religion, no skin off my nose if everything is just too hard to stop that tiny majority setting the agenda, influencing opinion and defining modern Islam.

It is a sorry state of affair that the vast majority of millions are so apathetic in an issue that deeply affects them.

Polite people are becoming emboldened to discuss Islamic immigration . If we have a mass casualty event a concocted feelgood # won't make everyone feel warm and fuzzy.

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Yadda

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A cat with a view

Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #61 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:45pm

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 1:03pm:

There is no way you can interpret self defense or dying in the way of Allah as driving a truck into a crowd of people or blowing yourself up in a shopping centre.

This is one of the biggest delusions of modern times.

No ?

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

.

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 1:03pm:

The killing of innocent people is completely against Islamic teachings. Jihad, an inner struggle, can only be an outer struggle in the defense of yourself or others. Every Muslim will tell you this.

........
........
Killing infidels is not an Islamic teaching. The Koran advises Muslims to leave non-Muslims alone, not to proselytize when they're not receptive, and to obey the laws when living or travelling in their land.

Some instructions are literal, others not so much, but the injunction not to kill innocents, it seems to me, is pretty clear.

Gordon wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 1:07pm:

It's all about weasel words. They can't kill innocents. Kafir's are not innocent.

Exactly so Gordon.

It is called sophistry.

Moslems always/endlessly employ sophistry, when 'communicating' with disbelievers !!

Dictionary,
sophistry = = the use of fallacious arguments, especially to deceive.

Taqiyya

“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”

google

.

Spokesmen for ISLAM will tell anyone who will listen;

THAT IT IS WRONG, AND THAT IT IS TOTALLY AGAINST ISLAMIC LAW, TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE.

Please watch this YT...
A UK moslem community leader, speaking in the wake of the London 7/7 bombing;

Quote:

YT

KILLING OF NON-MUSLIMS IS LEGITIMATE

"...when we say innocent people, we mean moslems."

"....[not accepting ISLAM] is a crime against God."
"...If you are a non-moslem, then you are guilty of not believing in God."
"...as a moslem....i must have hatred towards everything which is non-ISLAM."
"...[moslems] allegiance is always with the moslems, so i will never condemn a moslem for what he does."
"...Britain has always been Dar al Harb [the Land of War]"
"...no, i could never condemn a moslem brother, i would never condemn a moslem brother. I will always stand with my moslem brother....whether he is an oppresser or the oppressed."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #62 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 10:43am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2016 at 7:58pm:

have absolutely no problem with people interpreting Islamic teachings as how they see fit.

Good to know... but wait... when I asked you to consider if they had indeed done this, you replied...

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2016 at 8:01pm:

How can that be true? If that were true than the khans would need to, for instance, believe that polygyny is compatible with democratic ideals. No, the khans are just being hipocrites, which is fine in my world, except it's not fine in the Islamic world. And that's the problem.

So can we interpret your sentiment that "I have absolutely no problem with people interpreting Islamic teachings as how they see fit" - as 'I have no problem... but if they dare interpret it as peaceful and compatible with democracy, then I'll call them liars and hypocrites'?

Let's start with this, Gandalf, how do you interpret polygyny as being compatible with liberal and democratic values? Or, how do you interpret all the references to polygyny, as the word of Allah, to actually mean?

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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FD

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #63 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:48pm

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:17pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:06pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:00pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:56pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:55pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

Would that be the vast majority who have contacted authorities and gotten a range of Jihadists on Federal Police watch lists?

Would it be the vast majority who contacted the police about Man Monis? The vast majority who dobbed in that knife-wielding Afghan in Melbourne? Or how about the vast majority who are regularly onto the blower with police, police who have built a significant working rapport with the Muslim community according to the Director of ASIO?

Which vast majority do you mean? Honky doesn't want to say.

The vast majority of millions who cannot organise a counter rally in a public park the following week. Or any week after the tiny minority leave a bloody wake in Islams name.

Thinking you are winning points on a forum doesn't win the war of perceptions.

Yes, but millions of who?

Which club?

Do you have a quota of posts that you need to fill everyday? Roll Eyes

Gee, you're not saying either. I understand. You must be fearful.

How about you, Gordon?

The millions of moderate Muslims, I thought that was clear from my posts.

I generally ignore your stuff because it is usually (and there are thousands and thousands of your usuallys) either non sequiturs, reducto ad absurdums, diversionary satire, or pointless and repetitive sound bites.

Miam miam innit. Roll Eyes

You have too much free time obviously.

Yes, but what should we apologists do, Secret? We work with moderate Muslims, use moderate Muslim.services and businesses. Some of our best friends are even.moderate Muslims. Moderate Muslims are on our team.

As Honky says, different teams can’t possibly live in the same country. Do you think we should join your team?

How can you get us to join in?

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #64 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:50pm

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:48pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:17pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:06pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:00pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:56pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:55pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

Would that be the vast majority who have contacted authorities and gotten a range of Jihadists on Federal Police watch lists?

Would it be the vast majority who contacted the police about Man Monis? The vast majority who dobbed in that knife-wielding Afghan in Melbourne? Or how about the vast majority who are regularly onto the blower with police, police who have built a significant working rapport with the Muslim community according to the Director of ASIO?

Which vast majority do you mean? Honky doesn't want to say.

The vast majority of millions who cannot organise a counter rally in a public park the following week. Or any week after the tiny minority leave a bloody wake in Islams name.

Thinking you are winning points on a forum doesn't win the war of perceptions.

Yes, but millions of who?

Which club?

Do you have a quota of posts that you need to fill everyday? Roll Eyes

Gee, you're not saying either. I understand. You must be fearful.

How about you, Gordon?

The millions of moderate Muslims, I thought that was clear from my posts.

I generally ignore your stuff because it is usually (and there are thousands and thousands of your usuallys) either non sequiturs, reducto ad absurdums, diversionary satire, or pointless and repetitive sound bites.

Miam miam innit. Roll Eyes

You have too much free time obviously.

Yes, but what should we pologists do, Secret? We work with moderate Muslims, use moderate Muslim.services and businesses. Some of our best friends are even.moderate Muslims. Moderate Muslims are on our team.

As Honky says, different teams can’t possibly live in the same country. Do you think we should join your team?

How can you get us to join in?

How do the moderate Muslims you live and work with explain polygyny as dictated by Allah?

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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Gordon

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #65 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:53pm

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:48pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:17pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:06pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:00pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:56pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:55pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

Would that be the vast majority who have contacted authorities and gotten a range of Jihadists on Federal Police watch lists?

Would it be the vast majority who contacted the police about Man Monis? The vast majority who dobbed in that knife-wielding Afghan in Melbourne? Or how about the vast majority who are regularly onto the blower with police, police who have built a significant working rapport with the Muslim community according to the Director of ASIO?

Which vast majority do you mean? Honky doesn't want to say.

The vast majority of millions who cannot organise a counter rally in a public park the following week. Or any week after the tiny minority leave a bloody wake in Islams name.

Thinking you are winning points on a forum doesn't win the war of perceptions.

Yes, but millions of who?

Which club?

Do you have a quota of posts that you need to fill everyday? Roll Eyes

Gee, you're not saying either. I understand. You must be fearful.

How about you, Gordon?

The millions of moderate Muslims, I thought that was clear from my posts.

I generally ignore your stuff because it is usually (and there are thousands and thousands of your usuallys) either non sequiturs, reducto ad absurdums, diversionary satire, or pointless and repetitive sound bites.

Miam miam innit. Roll Eyes

You have too much free time obviously.

Yes, but what should we apologists do, Secret? We work with moderate Muslims, use moderate Muslim.services and businesses. Some of our best friends are even.moderate Muslims. Moderate Muslims are on our team.

As Honky says, different teams can’t possibly live in the same country. Do you think we should join your team?

How can you get us to join in?

So why are sooooo many things slipping thru the moderate Muslims.
The Saudi funding
The ISIS flags being auctioned
The dodgey imams
The terror plots
The people on watch lists
It's never ending.

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FD

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #66 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:02pm

freediver wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:22pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 12:05pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2016 at 7:30pm:

Ah, the old "mindless collective" argument. Absurd no? Monumentally stupid even? Always, or only when non-Muslims do it?

When we are talking about over a billion followers from all over the world - yes. Oh wait, were you actually comparing that to my thoughts about the mentality of the members from a tiny tribe in arabia in the 7th century?

But lets stay on topic - do you acknowledge this tendency to lump all muslims into a mindless collective? If so do you agree its a problem?

I acknowledge that you explicitly used the mindless collective justification for slaughtering Jews.

Is there a fundamental difference between 800 Jews and a billion Muslims, that allows you to use the mindless collective justification on the Jews but object to it being used for Muslims, without being a hypocrite?

Quote:

No. There is no way you can interpret self defense or dying in the way of Allah as driving a truck into a crowd of people or blowing yourself up in a shopping centre. This is one of the biggest delusions of modern times.

Karnal would you mind pointing out the references to self defence among all the infidel slaughtering in this chapter of the Koran?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313

Quote:

The killing of innocent people is completely against Islamic teachings.

So how do you justify Muhammed's slaughter of 800 innocent Jews in one day? Is this where you say out of the side of your mouth that they were not innocent because they were not Muslims? Or do you rpefer "tough titties, off with their heads?"

Quote:

Jihadists are making fundamental ethical errors. Killing office workers in the World Trade Centre is not killing soldiers on a battlefield.

Is it killing the infidel wherever you find them?

Quote:

Muslims who make such fundamental errors are not following the true teachings of Islam, they're just wrong. The Koran is intended as a spiritual manual.

Would you mind pointing out the spiritual references for us?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313

Quote:

It requires interpretation and internalizing. It makes use of metaphor.

So what is this a metaphor for?

Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikun wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.

Quote:

Some instructions are literal, others not so much, but the injunction not to kill innocents, it seems to me, is pretty clear.

If it is so clear, why do Imam's add the caveat that only Muslims are innocent.

You’ve been.doing this for years, FD. Is this really the best you can do?

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FD

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #67 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:06pm

Gordon wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:53pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:48pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:17pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:06pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:00pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:56pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:55pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

Would that be the vast majority who have contacted authorities and gotten a range of Jihadists on Federal Police watch lists?

Would it be the vast majority who contacted the police about Man Monis? The vast majority who dobbed in that knife-wielding Afghan in Melbourne? Or how about the vast majority who are regularly onto the blower with police, police who have built a significant working rapport with the Muslim community according to the Director of ASIO?

Which vast majority do you mean? Honky doesn't want to say.

The vast majority of millions who cannot organise a counter rally in a public park the following week. Or any week after the tiny minority leave a bloody wake in Islams name.

Thinking you are winning points on a forum doesn't win the war of perceptions.

Yes, but millions of who?

Which club?

Do you have a quota of posts that you need to fill everyday? Roll Eyes

Gee, you're not saying either. I understand. You must be fearful.

How about you, Gordon?

The millions of moderate Muslims, I thought that was clear from my posts.

I generally ignore your stuff because it is usually (and there are thousands and thousands of your usuallys) either non sequiturs, reducto ad absurdums, diversionary satire, or pointless and repetitive sound bites.

Miam miam innit. Roll Eyes

You have too much free time obviously.

Yes, but what should we apologists do, Secret? We work with moderate Muslims, use moderate Muslim.services and businesses. Some of our best friends are even.moderate Muslims. Moderate Muslims are on our team.

As Honky says, different teams can’t possibly live in the same country. Do you think we should join your team?

How can you get us to join in?

So why are sooooo many things slipping thru the moderate Muslims.
The Saudi funding
The ISIS flags being auctioned
The dodgey imams
The terror plots
The people on watch lists
It's never ending.

I have no idea, Gordon. Why does the only moderate Muslim on this board write smarter, nicer, more honest and more more persuasive posts than yours?

Rat cunning?

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FD

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #68 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:10pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:50pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:48pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:17pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:06pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:00pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:56pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:55pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

Would that be the vast majority who have contacted authorities and gotten a range of Jihadists on Federal Police watch lists?

Would it be the vast majority who contacted the police about Man Monis? The vast majority who dobbed in that knife-wielding Afghan in Melbourne? Or how about the vast majority who are regularly onto the blower with police, police who have built a significant working rapport with the Muslim community according to the Director of ASIO?

Which vast majority do you mean? Honky doesn't want to say.

The vast majority of millions who cannot organise a counter rally in a public park the following week. Or any week after the tiny minority leave a bloody wake in Islams name.

Thinking you are winning points on a forum doesn't win the war of perceptions.

Yes, but millions of who?

Which club?

Do you have a quota of posts that you need to fill everyday? Roll Eyes

Gee, you're not saying either. I understand. You must be fearful.

How about you, Gordon?

The millions of moderate Muslims, I thought that was clear from my posts.

I generally ignore your stuff because it is usually (and there are thousands and thousands of your usuallys) either non sequiturs, reducto ad absurdums, diversionary satire, or pointless and repetitive sound bites.

Miam miam innit. Roll Eyes

You have too much free time obviously.

Yes, but what should we pologists do, Secret? We work with moderate Muslims, use moderate Muslim.services and businesses. Some of our best friends are even.moderate Muslims. Moderate Muslims are on our team.

As Honky says, different teams can’t possibly live in the same country. Do you think we should join your team?

How can you get us to join in?

How do the moderate Muslims you live and work with explain polygyny as dictated by Allah?

I doubt they’d even know. Would they blush if I asked?

Should I take the risk and try?

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Gordon

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #69 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:13pm

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:06pm:

Gordon wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:53pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:48pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:17pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:06pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:00pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:56pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:55pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

Would that be the vast majority who have contacted authorities and gotten a range of Jihadists on Federal Police watch lists?

Would it be the vast majority who contacted the police about Man Monis? The vast majority who dobbed in that knife-wielding Afghan in Melbourne? Or how about the vast majority who are regularly onto the blower with police, police who have built a significant working rapport with the Muslim community according to the Director of ASIO?

Which vast majority do you mean? Honky doesn't want to say.

The vast majority of millions who cannot organise a counter rally in a public park the following week. Or any week after the tiny minority leave a bloody wake in Islams name.

Thinking you are winning points on a forum doesn't win the war of perceptions.

Yes, but millions of who?

Which club?

Do you have a quota of posts that you need to fill everyday? Roll Eyes

Gee, you're not saying either. I understand. You must be fearful.

How about you, Gordon?

The millions of moderate Muslims, I thought that was clear from my posts.

I generally ignore your stuff because it is usually (and there are thousands and thousands of your usuallys) either non sequiturs, reducto ad absurdums, diversionary satire, or pointless and repetitive sound bites.

Miam miam innit. Roll Eyes

You have too much free time obviously.

Yes, but what should we apologists do, Secret? We work with moderate Muslims, use moderate Muslim.services and businesses. Some of our best friends are even.moderate Muslims. Moderate Muslims are on our team.

As Honky says, different teams can’t possibly live in the same country. Do you think we should join your team?

How can you get us to join in?

So why are sooooo many things slipping thru the moderate Muslims.
The Saudi funding
The ISIS flags being auctioned
The dodgey imams
The terror plots
The people on watch lists
It's never ending.

I have no idea, Gordon. Why does the only moderate Muslim on this board write smarter, nicer, more honest and more more persuasive posts than yours?

Rat cunning?

Ohhhahhh let's change the subject.
I heard someone on ABC banging on about more money needed for deradicalisation programs.

Seriously why is all this needed for such a small % of the population?

I notice you don't want to play in my thread about a senior AQ guy having links to an Islamic youth centre.
I'll take your silence as a surrender.

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« Last Edit: Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:18pm by Gordon »

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #70 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:18pm

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:10pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:50pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:48pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:17pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:06pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:00pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:56pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:55pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

Would that be the vast majority who have contacted authorities and gotten a range of Jihadists on Federal Police watch lists?

Would it be the vast majority who contacted the police about Man Monis? The vast majority who dobbed in that knife-wielding Afghan in Melbourne? Or how about the vast majority who are regularly onto the blower with police, police who have built a significant working rapport with the Muslim community according to the Director of ASIO?

Which vast majority do you mean? Honky doesn't want to say.

The vast majority of millions who cannot organise a counter rally in a public park the following week. Or any week after the tiny minority leave a bloody wake in Islams name.

Thinking you are winning points on a forum doesn't win the war of perceptions.

Yes, but millions of who?

Which club?

Do you have a quota of posts that you need to fill everyday? Roll Eyes

Gee, you're not saying either. I understand. You must be fearful.

How about you, Gordon?

The millions of moderate Muslims, I thought that was clear from my posts.

I generally ignore your stuff because it is usually (and there are thousands and thousands of your usuallys) either non sequiturs, reducto ad absurdums, diversionary satire, or pointless and repetitive sound bites.

Miam miam innit. Roll Eyes

You have too much free time obviously.

Yes, but what should we pologists do, Secret? We work with moderate Muslims, use moderate Muslim.services and businesses. Some of our best friends are even.moderate Muslims. Moderate Muslims are on our team.

As Honky says, different teams can’t possibly live in the same country. Do you think we should join your team?

How can you get us to join in?

How do the moderate Muslims you live and work with explain polygyny as dictated by Allah?

I doubt they’d even know. Would they blush if I asked?

Should I take the risk and try?

So they haven't read the koran?

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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polite_gandalf

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Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #71 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:27pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:47pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 10:43am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2016 at 7:58pm:

have absolutely no problem with people interpreting Islamic teachings as how they see fit.

Good to know... but wait... when I asked you to consider if they had indeed done this, you replied...

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2016 at 8:01pm:

How can that be true? If that were true than the khans would need to, for instance, believe that polygyny is compatible with democratic ideals. No, the khans are just being hipocrites, which is fine in my world, except it's not fine in the Islamic world. And that's the problem.

So can we interpret your sentiment that "I have absolutely no problem with people interpreting Islamic teachings as how they see fit" - as 'I have no problem... but if they dare interpret it as peaceful and compatible with democracy, then I'll call them liars and hypocrites'?

Let's start with this, Gandalf, how do you interpret polygyny as being compatible with liberal and democratic values? Or, how do you interpret all the references to polygyny, as the word of Allah, to actually mean?

http://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/polygamy_islam.html

Polygyny is permitted in only one specific situation - when there is a widow with children who can't be supported by the widow alone. In that case, and *ONLY* when there is no other way of supporting the children, then a man may marry such a widow - even if he is already married. But the Quran is very clear that outside of this specific condition, only monogomous relationships are permitted. It can be argued quite easily that in a modern, advanced society, such a scenario will never arise. Such orphans will be taken care of by the state. So you know what? I actually agree that polygyny is not compatible with liberal and democratic values in a modern society. The scenario is clearly only possible in societies devastated by poverty and war. And certainly not liberal and democratic ones.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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FD

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Posts: 100146

Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #72 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:43pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:18pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:10pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:50pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:48pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:17pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:06pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:00pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:56pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:55pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

Would that be the vast majority who have contacted authorities and gotten a range of Jihadists on Federal Police watch lists?

Would it be the vast majority who contacted the police about Man Monis? The vast majority who dobbed in that knife-wielding Afghan in Melbourne? Or how about the vast majority who are regularly onto the blower with police, police who have built a significant working rapport with the Muslim community according to the Director of ASIO?

Which vast majority do you mean? Honky doesn't want to say.

The vast majority of millions who cannot organise a counter rally in a public park the following week. Or any week after the tiny minority leave a bloody wake in Islams name.

Thinking you are winning points on a forum doesn't win the war of perceptions.

Yes, but millions of who?

Which club?

Do you have a quota of posts that you need to fill everyday? Roll Eyes

Gee, you're not saying either. I understand. You must be fearful.

How about you, Gordon?

The millions of moderate Muslims, I thought that was clear from my posts.

I generally ignore your stuff because it is usually (and there are thousands and thousands of your usuallys) either non sequiturs, reducto ad absurdums, diversionary satire, or pointless and repetitive sound bites.

Miam miam innit. Roll Eyes

You have too much free time obviously.

Yes, but what should we pologists do, Secret? We work with moderate Muslims, use moderate Muslim.services and businesses. Some of our best friends are even.moderate Muslims. Moderate Muslims are on our team.

As Honky says, different teams can’t possibly live in the same country. Do you think we should join your team?

How can you get us to join in?

How do the moderate Muslims you live and work with explain polygyny as dictated by Allah?

I doubt they’d even know. Would they blush if I asked?

Should I take the risk and try?

So they haven't read the koran?

I don’t know.

Have you?

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sir prince duke alevine

Gold Member

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Australian Politics

Posts: 23619
Gender: male

Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #73 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 9:13pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:27pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:47pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 10:43am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2016 at 7:58pm:

have absolutely no problem with people interpreting Islamic teachings as how they see fit.

Good to know... but wait... when I asked you to consider if they had indeed done this, you replied...

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2016 at 8:01pm:

How can that be true? If that were true than the khans would need to, for instance, believe that polygyny is compatible with democratic ideals. No, the khans are just being hipocrites, which is fine in my world, except it's not fine in the Islamic world. And that's the problem.

So can we interpret your sentiment that "I have absolutely no problem with people interpreting Islamic teachings as how they see fit" - as 'I have no problem... but if they dare interpret it as peaceful and compatible with democracy, then I'll call them liars and hypocrites'?

Let's start with this, Gandalf, how do you interpret polygyny as being compatible with liberal and democratic values? Or, how do you interpret all the references to polygyny, as the word of Allah, to actually mean?

http://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/polygamy_islam.html

Polygyny is permitted in only one specific situation - when there is a widow with children who can't be supported by the widow alone. In that case, and *ONLY* when there is no other way of supporting the children, then a man may marry such a widow - even if he is already married. But the Quran is very clear that outside of this specific condition, only monogomous relationships are permitted. It can be argued quite easily that in a modern, advanced society, such a scenario will never arise. Such orphans will be taken care of by the state. So you know what? I actually agree that polygyny is not compatible with liberal and democratic values in a modern society. The scenario is clearly only possible in societies devastated by poverty and war. And certainly not liberal and democratic ones.

Yeh, a few things with this. Firstly, orphans is not implied to mothers children but rather the orphan girls that Arabian men used to live with and marry. Hence Allah is saying don't marry the ophan girls if you can't deal fairly with them, but marry up to four women of your choosing. I'm not sure why this translation is suggesting "permission" as most translations I've seen say "of your choice" implying direct male decision over which women he wants. Also, most translations include a line about slave girls/captives you can marry as part of this verse. I can of course only go by English translations, but you can't really reinterpreted the word of Allah by omitting sections, if that was indeed done here.

Anyway, even if we were to take this "interpretation" of what Allah said, we are still left in an incompatible situation with liberal values because the decisions are by the men and not by consenting adults, or even the state. Even if we were to accept that under the provision that you would take care of an orphan (which is historically not quite right) why 1) is Allah telling us the man gets to make the decision and not all the parties, 2) why can't women have multiple partners to look after their children and 3) does this mean that despite the reality in society, the man is warranted to make the decision over the wishes of both their partner/s and the state?

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« Last Edit: Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 9:18pm by sir prince duke alevine »

Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Posts: 23619
Gender: male

Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #74 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 9:16pm

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:43pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:18pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 8:10pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:50pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:48pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:17pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:06pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:00pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:56pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:55pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

Would that be the vast majority who have contacted authorities and gotten a range of Jihadists on Federal Police watch lists?

Would it be the vast majority who contacted the police about Man Monis? The vast majority who dobbed in that knife-wielding Afghan in Melbourne? Or how about the vast majority who are regularly onto the blower with police, police who have built a significant working rapport with the Muslim community according to the Director of ASIO?

Which vast majority do you mean? Honky doesn't want to say.

The vast majority of millions who cannot organise a counter rally in a public park the following week. Or any week after the tiny minority leave a bloody wake in Islams name.

Thinking you are winning points on a forum doesn't win the war of perceptions.

Yes, but millions of who?

Which club?

Do you have a quota of posts that you need to fill everyday? Roll Eyes

Gee, you're not saying either. I understand. You must be fearful.

How about you, Gordon?

The millions of moderate Muslims, I thought that was clear from my posts.

I generally ignore your stuff because it is usually (and there are thousands and thousands of your usuallys) either non sequiturs, reducto ad absurdums, diversionary satire, or pointless and repetitive sound bites.

Miam miam innit. Roll Eyes

You have too much free time obviously.

Yes, but what should we pologists do, Secret? We work with moderate Muslims, use moderate Muslim.services and businesses. Some of our best friends are even.moderate Muslims. Moderate Muslims are on our team.

As Honky says, different teams can’t possibly live in the same country. Do you think we should join your team?

How can you get us to join in?

How do the moderate Muslims you live and work with explain polygyny as dictated by Allah?

I doubt they’d even know. Would they blush if I asked?

Should I take the risk and try?

So they haven't read the koran?

I don’t know.

Have you?

No, but I don't claim to be a moderate Muslim who shares compatible liberal values.

Best you check, karnal, before trying to use people you know as examples, no?

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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