Australian Politics Forum - Typical regressive left gets it wrong again

Gordon

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #45 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:54pm

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:37pm:

Gordon wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:12pm:

Sorry Gandalf but you're deluded.

That's the spirit. As soon as G gets nice and deluded, we'll mark another one down for Team Australia/Canada.

Personally, I don't see what's wrong with G not being deluded, but that's just me.

Your sewage/content ratio is getting bad again.

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #46 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:55pm

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:50pm:

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

What's hate got to do with it karnal?

There might be a dozen teams in a sports league - it doesn't follow that they all hate each other. They provide competition for one another, competition that usually benefits all involved.

The liberal reduction of any degree of separation to "hate" is ridiculous.

Which team are you playing against, Honky?

In which league?

In the global geopolitics league, I'm for the west. That said, we're going to have to drastically overhaul our list if we're going to be competitive. I'd happily use you as trade bait.

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In the fullness of time...

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Secret Wars

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #47 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:55pm

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

Would that be the vast majority who have contacted authorities and gotten a range of Jihadists on Federal Police watch lists?

Would it be the vast majority who contacted the police about Man Monis? The vast majority who dobbed in that knife-wielding Afghan in Melbourne? Or how about the vast majority who are regularly onto the blower with police, police who have built a significant working rapport with the Muslim community according to the Director of ASIO?

Which vast majority do you mean? Honky doesn't want to say.

The vast majority of millions who cannot organise a counter rally in a public park the following week. Or any week after the tiny minority leave a bloody wake in Islams name.

Thinking you are winning points on a forum doesn't win the war of perceptions.

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FD

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #48 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:56pm

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:55pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

Would that be the vast majority who have contacted authorities and gotten a range of Jihadists on Federal Police watch lists?

Would it be the vast majority who contacted the police about Man Monis? The vast majority who dobbed in that knife-wielding Afghan in Melbourne? Or how about the vast majority who are regularly onto the blower with police, police who have built a significant working rapport with the Muslim community according to the Director of ASIO?

Which vast majority do you mean? Honky doesn't want to say.

The vast majority of millions who cannot organise a counter rally in a public park the following week. Or any week after the tiny minority leave a bloody wake in Islams name.

Thinking you are winning points on a forum doesn't win the war of perceptions.

Yes, but millions of who?

Which club?

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Secret Wars

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #49 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:00pm

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:56pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:55pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

Would that be the vast majority who have contacted authorities and gotten a range of Jihadists on Federal Police watch lists?

Would it be the vast majority who contacted the police about Man Monis? The vast majority who dobbed in that knife-wielding Afghan in Melbourne? Or how about the vast majority who are regularly onto the blower with police, police who have built a significant working rapport with the Muslim community according to the Director of ASIO?

Which vast majority do you mean? Honky doesn't want to say.

The vast majority of millions who cannot organise a counter rally in a public park the following week. Or any week after the tiny minority leave a bloody wake in Islams name.

Thinking you are winning points on a forum doesn't win the war of perceptions.

Yes, but millions of who?

Which club?

Do you have a quota of posts that you need to fill everyday? Roll Eyes

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Gordon Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21516 Gordon Gender:	Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again Reply #50 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:03pm Show this nice little filum to Australians then ask their perceptions of Islam.
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FD

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #51 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:06pm

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:00pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:56pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:55pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

Would that be the vast majority who have contacted authorities and gotten a range of Jihadists on Federal Police watch lists?

Would it be the vast majority who contacted the police about Man Monis? The vast majority who dobbed in that knife-wielding Afghan in Melbourne? Or how about the vast majority who are regularly onto the blower with police, police who have built a significant working rapport with the Muslim community according to the Director of ASIO?

Which vast majority do you mean? Honky doesn't want to say.

The vast majority of millions who cannot organise a counter rally in a public park the following week. Or any week after the tiny minority leave a bloody wake in Islams name.

Thinking you are winning points on a forum doesn't win the war of perceptions.

Yes, but millions of who?

Which club?

Do you have a quota of posts that you need to fill everyday? Roll Eyes

Gee, you're not saying either. I understand. You must be fearful.

How about you, Gordon?

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Secret Wars

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #52 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:17pm

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:06pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:00pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:56pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:55pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

Would that be the vast majority who have contacted authorities and gotten a range of Jihadists on Federal Police watch lists?

Would it be the vast majority who contacted the police about Man Monis? The vast majority who dobbed in that knife-wielding Afghan in Melbourne? Or how about the vast majority who are regularly onto the blower with police, police who have built a significant working rapport with the Muslim community according to the Director of ASIO?

Which vast majority do you mean? Honky doesn't want to say.

The vast majority of millions who cannot organise a counter rally in a public park the following week. Or any week after the tiny minority leave a bloody wake in Islams name.

Thinking you are winning points on a forum doesn't win the war of perceptions.

Yes, but millions of who?

Which club?

Do you have a quota of posts that you need to fill everyday? Roll Eyes

Gee, you're not saying either. I understand. You must be fearful.

How about you, Gordon?

The millions of moderate Muslims, I thought that was clear from my posts.

I generally ignore your stuff because it is usually (and there are thousands and thousands of your usuallys) either non sequiturs, reducto ad absurdums, diversionary satire, or pointless and repetitive sound bites.

Miam miam innit. Roll Eyes

You have too much free time obviously.

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freediver

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #53 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:22pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 12:05pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2016 at 7:30pm:

Ah, the old "mindless collective" argument. Absurd no? Monumentally stupid even? Always, or only when non-Muslims do it?

When we are talking about over a billion followers from all over the world - yes. Oh wait, were you actually comparing that to my thoughts about the mentality of the members from a tiny tribe in arabia in the 7th century?

But lets stay on topic - do you acknowledge this tendency to lump all muslims into a mindless collective? If so do you agree its a problem?

I acknowledge that you explicitly used the mindless collective justification for slaughtering Jews.

Is there a fundamental difference between 800 Jews and a billion Muslims, that allows you to use the mindless collective justification on the Jews but object to it being used for Muslims, without being a hypocrite?

Quote:

No. There is no way you can interpret self defense or dying in the way of Allah as driving a truck into a crowd of people or blowing yourself up in a shopping centre. This is one of the biggest delusions of modern times.

Karnal would you mind pointing out the references to self defence among all the infidel slaughtering in this chapter of the Koran?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313

Quote:

The killing of innocent people is completely against Islamic teachings.

So how do you justify Muhammed's slaughter of 800 innocent Jews in one day? Is this where you say out of the side of your mouth that they were not innocent because they were not Muslims? Or do you rpefer "tough titties, off with their heads?"

Quote:

Jihadists are making fundamental ethical errors. Killing office workers in the World Trade Centre is not killing soldiers on a battlefield.

Is it killing the infidel wherever you find them?

Quote:

Muslims who make such fundamental errors are not following the true teachings of Islam, they're just wrong. The Koran is intended as a spiritual manual.

Would you mind pointing out the spiritual references for us?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313

Quote:

It requires interpretation and internalizing. It makes use of metaphor.

So what is this a metaphor for?

Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikun wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.

Quote:

Some instructions are literal, others not so much, but the injunction not to kill innocents, it seems to me, is pretty clear.

If it is so clear, why do Imam's add the caveat that only Muslims are innocent.

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« Last Edit: Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:34pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #54 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:58pm

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:09pm:

Neo Nazis turn up for a protest leftist rent a crowd will always be there and almost always outnumbering Neo Nazis.

the leftist rent-a-crowds are almost entirely non-muslim. What you lot term the regressive left. Apologists, if you will. I must say I am struggling to think of any muslim-initiated counter-protest against anti-Islam protesters. So why can't we apply the same logic and say muslims are apologists for Islamophobia?

Quote:

Are you so unaware of your co-religionists that their protests are always a surprise, unknown and unsuspected by the vast majority, the many millions of moderates?

Protest secret, singular. Which is kind of a pertinent point here - it is literally the only one of its kind in Australia in the entire history of muslim settlement in Australia. So yeah, I think anyone who opposes them - muslim or non-muslim can be forgiven for not anticipating that one.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Aussie

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #55 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:07pm

This:

Quote:

So how do you justify Muhammed's slaughter of 800 innocent Jews in one day? Is this where you say out of the side of your mouth that they were not innocent because they were not Muslims? Or do you rpefer "tough titties, off with their heads?"

....is a repetitive theme with you freediver, and it appears so much so, that you have virtually built your entire Muslim bash upon it, as though it occurred yesterday, and in some political vacuum.

The actual events are unknown as you well know. Even if it ever happened is not established. Assuming it did, the reasons are certainly even more unclear, and among them is those killed were traitors.

Get over it freediver. I for one do not care what happened thirty zillion years ago.

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Secret Wars

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #56 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:11pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 6:58pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:09pm:

Neo Nazis turn up for a protest leftist rent a crowd will always be there and almost always outnumbering Neo Nazis.

the leftist rent-a-crowds are almost entirely non-muslim. What you lot term the regressive left. Apologists, if you will. I must say I am struggling to think of any muslim-initiated counter-protest against anti-Islam protesters. So why can't we apply the same logic and say muslims are apologists for Islamophobia?

Quote:

Are you so unaware of your co-religionists that their protests are always a surprise, unknown and unsuspected by the vast majority, the many millions of moderates?

Protest secret, singular. Which is kind of a pertinent point here - it is literally the only one of its kind in Australia in the entire history of muslim settlement in Australia. So yeah, I think anyone who opposes them - muslim or non-muslim can be forgiven for not anticipating that one.

When cultists in the name of Islam commit atrocities in France or wherever it is beyond the ability of the vast majority of moderates to hold a gathering with not in my name signs? Cos that is the sort of effort needed to counter the oft mentioned tiny majority. And it needs a sustained effort. A token twenty won't cut it.

Meh, it's your religion, no skin off my nose if everything is just too hard to stop that tiny majority setting the agenda, influencing opinion and defining modern Islam.

It is a sorry state of affair that the vast majority of millions are so apathetic in an issue that deeply affects them.

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Yadda

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #57 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:25pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2016 at 1:14pm:

It never ceases to amaze me how a book that isn't even close to having a consensus interpretation amongst muslims - can come across as so dogmatically black and white to some non-muslims - almost all of whom have next to no knowledge of what the book actually says.

Disingenuous gandalf. !!!

There is no ambiguity, in many, many Koran verses.

e.g.
Koran verses like these gandalf.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

"There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone"....."
Koran 60:4

"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

"O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter?...."
Koran 9.38,39

.

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2016 at 1:14pm:

Its so simple isn't it alevine? If you are a peaceful muslim who espouses peaceful, inclusive and liberal ideas - then you absolutely must be completely betraying your Holy Text - absolutely, never ever, case closed.

It is monumentally stupid on two levels: 1. there absolutely is a strong scholarly case for a peaceful, inclusive Quran - enshrined in many verses including 5:16.....

gandalf,

You claim that these verses are the example of;

"a peaceful, inclusive Quran" ???

"O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, -
Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight. "
Koran 5.15, 16

Yadda paraprases/interprets Koran 5.15, 16;

'Jews and Christians! Mohammed has come to your communities, revealing to you all about ISLAM. A new light from Allah has come to you, in the faith of ISLAM, by virtue of the clearly understood [perspicuous] Koran.
Allah guides all people in the way of peace and safety [i.e. by ISLAM], and by ISLAM, Allah leads all people out of darkness, and by a path that is straight.'

i.e.
The hearer must accept ISLAM.

Where is the a peaceful, inclusiveness gandalf, ....for those who reject ISLAM and want to remain Jews ?

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

Where is the a peaceful, inclusiveness gandalf ???

Allah himself states in the Koran, that the people must abandon their families, if their families remain unbelievers!

"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred...."
Koran 58.22

"O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers."
Koran 9.23

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #58 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:37pm

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 1:03pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2016 at 7:58pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2016 at 1:14pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 1^st, 2016 at 9:48pm:

A much more interesting question to ask the Khans would be whether they agree that the Koran is the literal word of Allah, and if they do whether that means all the preaching of war in the Koran, and the ahadith is something they then must obey, or else be seen as being traitors to their own religion.

It never ceases to amaze me how a book that isn't even close to having a consensus interpretation amongst muslims - can come across as so dogmatically black and white to some non-muslims - almost all of whom have next to no knowledge of what the book actually says.

Its so simple isn't it alevine? If you are a peaceful muslim who espouses peaceful, inclusive and liberal ideas - then you absolutely must be completely betraying your Holy Text - absolutely, never ever, case closed.

It is monumentally stupid on two levels: 1. there absolutely is a strong scholarly case for a peaceful, inclusive Quran - enshrined in many verses including 5:16 - and moreover, there is a strong case for arguing that the so called "war verses" apply only in self defense. But far worse is 2. - the absurd idea that individual muslims have no independence or free will to interpret their own religion the way it means to them, personally. No, muslims must necessarily be cast according to what alevine and co dictate as what their religion is about. And thus you get this idiotic black and white dictum: if you are a nice muslim, there is no way around it - you are betraying your religion. No ifs, no buts, case closed.

Not self defence, Gandalf, but defence of Islam, which is a massive difference.

And given that peace is defined as belief, submission or death then I'm not quite sure how 5:16 is relevant at all.

But anyway, moving away from this I have absolutely no problem with people interpreting Islamic teachings as how they see fit. The problem becomes that it's kind of hard to reinterpret something that is believed to be the literal word of Allah. Can you imagine if you go to "paradise" and say, " oh well I decided you meant something different." I mean, you definitely won't succeed in any business where you just decide to reinterpret words/instructions of someone. Wink

. Anyway, what we do know is that because the book is seen as the word of Allah then any Muslim who reinterprets is seen as a hypocrite to that belief... No?

No. There is no way you can interpret self defense or dying in the way of Allah as driving a truck into a crowd of people or blowing yourself up in a shopping centre. This is one of the biggest delusions of modern times.

The killing of innocent people is completely against Islamic teachings. Jihad, an inner struggle, can only be an outer struggle in the defense of yourself or others. Every Muslim will tell you this.

Jihadists are making fundamental ethical errors. Killing office workers in the World Trade Centre is not killing soldiers on a battlefield. Terrorism, or killing people to promote fear, doesn't fit within Islamic teachings. A terrorist cell, for example, can't declare war on "the West" by covertly killing off their civilians. Not only is the cell not at risk of being killed, there is no declaration of war and no clear enemy combatant.

Killing infidels is not an Islamic teaching. The Koran advises Muslims to leave non-Muslims alone, not to proselytize when they're not receptive, and to obey the laws when living or travelling in their land.

There is no way you can interpret suicide as dying in the way of Allah. Examples in the Koran include dying on a pilgrimage to Mecca or defending innocent civilians in a time of war. Afghanis defending themselves against a Soviet or US invasion are covered. Pakistanis defending Kashmiris from Indian soldiers on the border are covered. Members of Al Qaida blowing up themselves and as many civilians as they can take out?

Not covered. I believe the Koran makes references to hell as the punishment for this. It certainly says such actions are not pleasing to Allah. It says that the killing of one innocent person is akin to killing Allah Himself.

Muslims who make such fundamental errors are not following the true teachings of Islam, they're just wrong. The Koran is intended as a spiritual manual. It requires interpretation and internalizing. It makes use of metaphor. Some instructions are literal, others not so much, but the injunction not to kill innocents, it seems to me, is pretty clear.

The question I have is how people can get things so wrong. To me, this is far more interesting than blaming Islam. How do people overcome their biological will to live on such flimsy pretenses? How can they have so much hate for those they don't know that they're prepared to murder them? How do they become so alienated and ignorant? How can they possibly come to believe that they will be rewarded for mass murder with a specific number of virgins in the afterlife?

If their own parents, family and friends don't understand this, how can we attempt to?

Which part of "not self defence" but rather "defence of Islam" was hard to understand, karnal?

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #59 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 7:43pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:41pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 1:03pm:

No. There is no way you can interpret self defense or dying in the way of Allah as driving a truck into a crowd of people or blowing yourself up in a shopping centre. This is one of the biggest delusions of modern times.

The killing of innocent people is completely against Islamic teachings. Jihad, an inner struggle, can only be an outer struggle in the defense of yourself or others. Every Muslim will tell you this.

What continues to amaze me is how non-muslim critics can be so dogmatic about what Islamic scripture means. In contrast to non-muslim apologists who take what seems to me the common sense approach of saying that its up to muslims themselves to interpret and internalize it themselves - and the fact that the vast majority of muslims are not only peaceful, but believe in peace and goodwill to all - indicates that Islam is not inherently inconsistent with our values.

But these non-muslim critics, their arrogance is simply breath-taking - to not only be so certain and dogmatic about what Islamic doctrine means (despite rarely ever reading it themselves), but to shove their interpretations down the throats of muslims - and insist that any muslim who disagrees is either lying or delusional.

And here is yet another example of misunderstanding the idea of freedom of speech. There is absolutely nothing wrong with me, a non believer, criticising the ideas of Islam. And while Muslim people may very well be peaceful, it isn't that which is the concern but rather the idea of peace that Islam preaches through ahadith and the Koran. Of course Muslim people have the right to interpret their religion as they see fit, just like I have every right to criticise these interpretations as being against the liberal values that we have worked very hard for over the last 200 years. Especially if the interpretations leave very little scope for imagination when the Koran is considered the literal word of Allah.

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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