Australian Politics Forum - Typical regressive left gets it wrong again

polite_gandalf

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #30 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:41pm

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 1:03pm:

No. There is no way you can interpret self defense or dying in the way of Allah as driving a truck into a crowd of people or blowing yourself up in a shopping centre. This is one of the biggest delusions of modern times.

The killing of innocent people is completely against Islamic teachings. Jihad, an inner struggle, can only be an outer struggle in the defense of yourself or others. Every Muslim will tell you this.

What continues to amaze me is how non-muslim critics can be so dogmatic about what Islamic scripture means. In contrast to non-muslim apologists who take what seems to me the common sense approach of saying that its up to muslims themselves to interpret and internalize it themselves - and the fact that the vast majority of muslims are not only peaceful, but believe in peace and goodwill to all - indicates that Islam is not inherently inconsistent with our values.

But these non-muslim critics, their arrogance is simply breath-taking - to not only be so certain and dogmatic about what Islamic doctrine means (despite rarely ever reading it themselves), but to shove their interpretations down the throats of muslims - and insist that any muslim who disagrees is either lying or delusional.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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FD

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #31 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 2:49pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 2:38pm:

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 1:42pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 1:27pm:

You're right. I'm quite oblivious to this phenomenon. I have no idea how someone could become so brainwashed that they'd be prepared to carry out a mass murder-suicide.

We are drawn to become part of groups for the purpose of competing with other groups - when you wilfully deny the existence of any "other", as per the prime directive of liberalism, you become blind to the fact that this is how the human mind operates.

Striving for the good of ones group is how we advanced out of the caves and in to cities, but it could also send us right back there, if we won't defend our group against competing groups. The arab (and indeed the entire world, besides westerners) hasn't forgotten this, so they will go to any lengths to promote their group, one means by which is in attacking other groups (the west). Yes, that includes mass murder/suicide

Western Liberalism attempts to deny the existence of any ingroup/outgroups (in theory, but in practice "conservatives" are the only outgroup). In doing so, not only do they allow competing groups to attack them, they also refuse to allow their own group to defend itself. If there is no "other" how could you attack or defend against it?

It wouldn't take a genius to find the end result of that equation - even you could do it, if you allowed yourself to. Bottom line is, just because you're blind, doesn't mean everyone else is. The regressive left is like a child playing hide and seek, and hiding by covering their own eyes, thinking if they can't see you, you can't see them.

Since the cave days, we've come to define groups as nations. For a while there, it was monarchs, and before them, it was those who could recruit the biggest armies. Alexander the Great, for example, conquered much of Central Asia, and was followed by an even bigger conqueror and empire-builder, Ghengis Khan.

These conquerors became kings and emperors. In the 19th century, their kingdoms and empires became nation states. Since then, we've struggled, fought and died for empires and nation states.

We don't yet have a model that allows us to identify and specify vaguely defined groups. The "War on Terror" was deliberately vague. The Jihadists are making use of this problem. They move between nation states. They are driven by their own ideas about what constitutes their group, and these are vaguely defined too. Al Qaida, for example, have different ideas to ISIS. Jihadists are not united.

Your definition of the enemy as Arabs doesn't help. Arabs include Christians and Muslims. Even if you killed all the Arabs, you'd be stuck with other Muslim groups. Persians, for example, were the US' main target through the 80s and 90s.

We're all part of different and sometimes overlapping groups. Sometimes relations are friendly between them, sometimes not so.
The point is, there are always groups.

The idiotic delusion that "we are all one" can only lead to annihilation. It is a refusal to compete. Surrender. Submission. It's not for me to say if western liberals should or should not go down that path, that is their choice. But nor is it their place to drag many overlapping groups down with them.

On what lines do you define your groups, Honky?

Class? Gender? Race?

Please explain.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #32 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:35pm:

An alternative might be next time cultists are protesting with signs saying "behead those who insult the prophet" they be overwhelmingly and unambiguously outnumbered by representatives of the many millions holding signs saying "not in my name" or something.

The tiny minority is stealing your airtime.

The many millions are hardly seen let alone heard. I know you take exception to that but it is true, the many millions can hardly gather a token presence.

With respect to the 2012 protests, it would be unreasonable to assume anyone - including for that matter the protesters themselves - could predict the mayhem that ensued there. It was pretty spontaneous, and consisted of no more than a few dozen hot heads (the total protest was around 200, but only a tiny fraction of them ran rampant)

In any case, one could, with the same sort of logic, argue in the opposite way - and note that whenever the neo-nazis gather for an Islamophobic protest, muslims hardly ever turn up for a counter-protest - therefore, muslims don't care about Islamophobia. Which you obviously wouldn't take seriously.

Personally, I think its time for a reality check - look around you, lets be honest and ask ourselves what is the overwhelming portrayal of Islam in our mainstream non-muslim society - is it that ISIS and co are the true representatives of Islam, or is it that Islam is overwhelmingly peaceful and against ISIS? Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #33 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:57pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:41pm:

What continues to amaze me is how non-muslim critics can be so dogmatic about what Islamic scripture means.

When we have muslims walking around Hyde park with signs saying behead those who insult the prophet how are we supposed to interpret that?

It wasn't just bearded nutjobs holding those signs it was also women and children.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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FD

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #34 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:58pm

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 2:47pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 12:19pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2016 at 8:20pm:

What I do object to though is when a head hacker declares they do something in the name of Alan snackbar, they cite chapter and verse and precedent why they are doing this deed in the name of Islam and the result is a legion of apologist deflectors all saying it has nuffin to do wiv Islam.

It is a rehearsed line that rightly invites ridicule and mocking.

Hilarious - hilarious because people like moses and alevine say exactly the same thing when a muslim doctrinally justifies acts of kindness and love.

Do you agree that this well-worn "rehearsed line" also rightly invites ridicule and mocking?

Can't say I have seen too many or even any threads detailing Islamic acts of kindness and love.

Ah.

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FD

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #35 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:04pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:41pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 1:03pm:

No. There is no way you can interpret self defense or dying in the way of Allah as driving a truck into a crowd of people or blowing yourself up in a shopping centre. This is one of the biggest delusions of modern times.

The killing of innocent people is completely against Islamic teachings. Jihad, an inner struggle, can only be an outer struggle in the defense of yourself or others. Every Muslim will tell you this.

What continues to amaze me is how non-muslim critics can be so dogmatic about what Islamic scripture means. In contrast to non-muslim apologists who take what seems to me the common sense approach of saying that its up to muslims themselves to interpret and internalize it themselves - and the fact that the vast majority of muslims are not only peaceful, but believe in peace and goodwill to all - indicates that Islam is not inherently inconsistent with our values.

But these non-muslim critics, their arrogance is simply breath-taking - to not only be so certain and dogmatic about what Islamic doctrine means (despite rarely ever reading it themselves), but to shove their interpretations down the throats of muslims - and insist that any muslim who disagrees is either lying or delusional.

Yes, we live in this age - an age where ignorance is aspired to. Love equals hate. War equals peace. We need you to be this enemy, G. You're the one for now.

Don't worry though, in a few years time, you'll be a distant memory. The Muselman? Ban them? Kill them? Nuke them?

I never said that. Quote me.

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Secret Wars

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #36 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:09pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:35pm:

An alternative might be next time cultists are protesting with signs saying "behead those who insult the prophet" they be overwhelmingly and unambiguously outnumbered by representatives of the many millions holding signs saying "not in my name" or something.

The tiny minority is stealing your airtime.

The many millions are hardly seen let alone heard. I know you take exception to that but it is true, the many millions can hardly gather a token presence.

With respect to the 2012 protests, it would be unreasonable to assume anyone - including for that matter the protesters themselves - could predict the mayhem that ensued there. It was pretty spontaneous, and consisted of no more than a few dozen hot heads (the total protest was around 200, but only a tiny fraction of them ran rampant)

In any case, one could, with the same sort of logic, argue in the opposite way - and note that whenever the neo-nazis gather for an Islamophobic protest, muslims hardly ever turn up for a counter-protest - therefore, muslims don't care about Islamophobia. Which you obviously wouldn't take seriously.

Personally, I think its time for a reality check - look around you, lets be honest and ask ourselves what is the overwhelming portrayal of Islam in our mainstream non-muslim society - is it that ISIS and co are the true representatives of Islam, or is it that Islam is overwhelmingly peaceful and against ISIS? Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

Neo Nazis turn up for a protest leftist rent a crowd will always be there and almost always outnumbering Neo Nazis.

Are you so unaware of your co-religionists that their protests are always a surprise, unknown and unsuspected by the vast majority, the many millions of moderates?

It's your waters, you are the ones with the most at stake. If you don't give a poo about the tiny minority, have no clue about what they are doing, no interest in what they are doing and can't be arsed organising against the tiny minority, no wonder that the perception is that you are at best powerless (or afraid of your fellow cultists) or at worst sympathisers.

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Gordon

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #37 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:12pm

Sorry Gandalf but you're deluded.

Hyde Park. That was driven by hard core angry Islamists many of who went on to be actual terrorists.
The signs they took, if anyone holding up a sign or giving a child a sign calling for decapitation doesn't think mayhem will ensue...well.
They went to cause a fight and got one.

The biggest surprise was there was so many there and that they were so hate filled

Now for your figures of perceptions of Muslims, rubbish.

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IBI

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...

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #38 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:31pm

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 2:49pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 2:38pm:

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 1:42pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 1:27pm:

You're right. I'm quite oblivious to this phenomenon. I have no idea how someone could become so brainwashed that they'd be prepared to carry out a mass murder-suicide.

We are drawn to become part of groups for the purpose of competing with other groups - when you wilfully deny the existence of any "other", as per the prime directive of liberalism, you become blind to the fact that this is how the human mind operates.

Striving for the good of ones group is how we advanced out of the caves and in to cities, but it could also send us right back there, if we won't defend our group against competing groups. The arab (and indeed the entire world, besides westerners) hasn't forgotten this, so they will go to any lengths to promote their group, one means by which is in attacking other groups (the west). Yes, that includes mass murder/suicide

Western Liberalism attempts to deny the existence of any ingroup/outgroups (in theory, but in practice "conservatives" are the only outgroup). In doing so, not only do they allow competing groups to attack them, they also refuse to allow their own group to defend itself. If there is no "other" how could you attack or defend against it?

It wouldn't take a genius to find the end result of that equation - even you could do it, if you allowed yourself to. Bottom line is, just because you're blind, doesn't mean everyone else is. The regressive left is like a child playing hide and seek, and hiding by covering their own eyes, thinking if they can't see you, you can't see them.

Since the cave days, we've come to define groups as nations. For a while there, it was monarchs, and before them, it was those who could recruit the biggest armies. Alexander the Great, for example, conquered much of Central Asia, and was followed by an even bigger conqueror and empire-builder, Ghengis Khan.

These conquerors became kings and emperors. In the 19th century, their kingdoms and empires became nation states. Since then, we've struggled, fought and died for empires and nation states.

We don't yet have a model that allows us to identify and specify vaguely defined groups. The "War on Terror" was deliberately vague. The Jihadists are making use of this problem. They move between nation states. They are driven by their own ideas about what constitutes their group, and these are vaguely defined too. Al Qaida, for example, have different ideas to ISIS. Jihadists are not united.

Your definition of the enemy as Arabs doesn't help. Arabs include Christians and Muslims. Even if you killed all the Arabs, you'd be stuck with other Muslim groups. Persians, for example, were the US' main target through the 80s and 90s.

We're all part of different and sometimes overlapping groups. Sometimes relations are friendly between them, sometimes not so.
The point is, there are always groups.

The idiotic delusion that "we are all one" can only lead to annihilation. It is a refusal to compete. Surrender. Submission. It's not for me to say if western liberals should or should not go down that path, that is their choice. But nor is it their place to drag many overlapping groups down with them.

On what lines do you define your groups, Honky?

Class? Gender? Race?

Please explain.

No, I don't think you need any further explanation.

You, and everyone reading this know exactly what it means, and you're just looking for a word out of place to say "gotcha" and avoid facing it.

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In the fullness of time...

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FD Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 100122	Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again Reply #39 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:37pm Gordon wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:12pm: Sorry Gandalf but you're deluded. That's the spirit. As soon as G gets nice and deluded, we'll mark another one down for Team Australia/Canada. Personally, I don't see what's wrong with G not being deluded, but that's just me.
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Secret Wars

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #40 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

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FD

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #41 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:40pm

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:31pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 2:49pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 2:38pm:

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 1:42pm:

FD wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 1:27pm:

You're right. I'm quite oblivious to this phenomenon. I have no idea how someone could become so brainwashed that they'd be prepared to carry out a mass murder-suicide.

We are drawn to become part of groups for the purpose of competing with other groups - when you wilfully deny the existence of any "other", as per the prime directive of liberalism, you become blind to the fact that this is how the human mind operates.

Striving for the good of ones group is how we advanced out of the caves and in to cities, but it could also send us right back there, if we won't defend our group against competing groups. The arab (and indeed the entire world, besides westerners) hasn't forgotten this, so they will go to any lengths to promote their group, one means by which is in attacking other groups (the west). Yes, that includes mass murder/suicide

Western Liberalism attempts to deny the existence of any ingroup/outgroups (in theory, but in practice "conservatives" are the only outgroup). In doing so, not only do they allow competing groups to attack them, they also refuse to allow their own group to defend itself. If there is no "other" how could you attack or defend against it?

It wouldn't take a genius to find the end result of that equation - even you could do it, if you allowed yourself to. Bottom line is, just because you're blind, doesn't mean everyone else is. The regressive left is like a child playing hide and seek, and hiding by covering their own eyes, thinking if they can't see you, you can't see them.

Since the cave days, we've come to define groups as nations. For a while there, it was monarchs, and before them, it was those who could recruit the biggest armies. Alexander the Great, for example, conquered much of Central Asia, and was followed by an even bigger conqueror and empire-builder, Ghengis Khan.

These conquerors became kings and emperors. In the 19th century, their kingdoms and empires became nation states. Since then, we've struggled, fought and died for empires and nation states.

We don't yet have a model that allows us to identify and specify vaguely defined groups. The "War on Terror" was deliberately vague. The Jihadists are making use of this problem. They move between nation states. They are driven by their own ideas about what constitutes their group, and these are vaguely defined too. Al Qaida, for example, have different ideas to ISIS. Jihadists are not united.

Your definition of the enemy as Arabs doesn't help. Arabs include Christians and Muslims. Even if you killed all the Arabs, you'd be stuck with other Muslim groups. Persians, for example, were the US' main target through the 80s and 90s.

We're all part of different and sometimes overlapping groups. Sometimes relations are friendly between them, sometimes not so.
The point is, there are always groups.

The idiotic delusion that "we are all one" can only lead to annihilation. It is a refusal to compete. Surrender. Submission. It's not for me to say if western liberals should or should not go down that path, that is their choice. But nor is it their place to drag many overlapping groups down with them.

On what lines do you define your groups, Honky?

Class? Gender? Race?

Please explain.

No, I don't think you need any further explanation.

You, and everyone reading this know exactly what it means, and you're just looking for a word out of place to say "gotcha" and avoid facing it.

If you don't mind me saying, Honky, that does sound a tad - what's the current term?

Fearful.

Come on, out with it. Is it the Arabs? Gordy's onto the Indonesians. Alevine, or some reason, is stuck on the pacifists.

Who do you hate?

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #42 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm

What's hate got to do with it karnal?

There might be a dozen teams in a sports league - it doesn't follow that they all hate each other. They provide competition for one another, competition that usually benefits all involved.

The liberal reduction of any degree of separation or competition to "hate" is ridiculous, and their aversion to competition explains why they are such losers.

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In the fullness of time...

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FD

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #43 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm

Secret Wars wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Or lets ask about what the vast majority of non-muslim Australians feel about muslims - overall positive or negative (hint, 75% = positive). Really, lets be honest about it, and then we can address the issue of who is "winning the propaganda war".

We can be honest, in view of the impotence articulated by you of the vast majority, do you anticipate that the many headlines at the hands of the tiny minority will erode the 75% positive rating?

Would that be the vast majority who have contacted authorities and gotten a range of Jihadists on Federal Police watch lists?

Would it be the vast majority who contacted the police about Man Monis? The vast majority who dobbed in that knife-wielding Afghan in Melbourne? Or how about the vast majority who are regularly onto the blower with police, police who have built a significant working rapport with the Muslim community according to the Director of ASIO?

Which vast majority do you mean? Honky doesn't want to say.

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FD

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Re: Typical regressive left gets it wrong again
Reply #44 - Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:50pm

... wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2016 at 5:49pm:

What's hate got to do with it karnal?

There might be a dozen teams in a sports league - it doesn't follow that they all hate each other. They provide competition for one another, competition that usually benefits all involved.

The liberal reduction of any degree of separation to "hate" is ridiculous.

Which team are you playing against, Honky?

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