...........Egypt, Turkey, and Pakistan ..............

Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society.

You are right that religion has become more prominent, but wrong to equate that with lack of liberty, or even 'liberal mindedness'. The great late President Turgut Ozal was a devout muslim, and also a believer in liberty and private enterprise. Whats important to note though, is that he actually saw the two as complimentary - as any muslim from the rationalist school will tell you. Through his notion of "the three freedom" - ideas, religion and enterprise -Ozal sought to build a Turkish economy that was pro-enterprise and pro-liberty, using Islam as the vehicle. Thus begat the era of the new Islamic Turkish revival - based on freedom and enterprise. Which was really just a continuation of the same Islamic ideals carried by the 'Young Ottomans' in the 19th and early 20th century, before militant secularists such as the 'Young Turks' took over.

In fact Ozal's, and later Erdogan's AKPs vision of Islam's role as an enabler of economic and personal freedoms, has a strong scholarly basis, through such works as the 'hadith project'.

But whats really funny here is for you to speak disparagingly of 'Turkish Islamism' in the context of liberty. What a joke - given the regard the Kemalists had and still have for Turkish people's liberties! Turks today enjoy far more freedom and democracy today under the 'Islamists' than they did under the anti-Islam secularists - and its precisely because of Islam. 

You'll be pleased to know that since the mid 19th century, Islamist rulers in Turkey have been the best friend of minorities. For example during the 19th century, before the secularists took over:

- all subjects of the Ottoman Empire were granted equal status before the law - regardless of race or religion
- apostasy was legalised
- non-Islamic religions were protected
- homosexuality was legalised

Basically, over the last century or so, its been the Islamists who protect individual rights liberties in Turkey, and the secularists who take them away.

while Erdogan has gone a bit over the top with his rhetoric, I don't see much evidence of actual moves to suppress democracy in practice - apart from a gaoling here and there.

...In any case, one has to put this into perspective and to understand the breathtaking hypocricy of the kemalist opposition - who would move to suppress religious freedoms - as well as many other freedoms, including yes, gays and journalists - in the blink of an eye - as they did for many decades last century.

...It remains a fact that in Turkey those on the side of freedom and democracy have, for well over a century, been the Islamists, while those on the side of oppression have been the anti-religious Kemalists. I see a lot of scoffing and faux outrage to this statement, but no one has actually tried to refute it.

We have nothing to worry about. Our forum's Islam expert reassured us of Turkey's freedom and liberty only a couple of weeks ago.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:28pm:


polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:


polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:28pm:


polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 7:02pm:


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 1^st, 2016 at 3:03pm:

Turkey becoming an Islamic State

to early to tell yet.

We'll see what develops about the coup attempt over the next few weeks and months

Quantum wrote on Jul 18^th, 2016 at 3:24pm:


... dear o dear o dear ... When will gandalf ever learn that trying to window-dress Islamic societies with conjecture and spin to resemble something to be admired and emulated by the West is as hopeless a task as King Canute trying the beat back the waves?

Islam is a formula and blue print for theocratic dictatorships, and not liberal democracies, as gandalf would know only too well.