Australian Politics Forum - EU to seek empire

The4thEstate

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Re: EU to seek empire
Reply #45 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 11:11pm

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:38pm:

Thanks, 4th. An excellent response. We should have these discussions more often.

Thanks, Karnal, I concur. And kudos to you for bringing up the issue.

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:38pm:

By the way, the EU does not take in refugees or immigrants. Only sovereign member states can do this.

This is an important point. Many Brits voted to exit the EU with this fallacy in mind.

Well ... that may be true in a technical sense, but the EU has plenty to do with taking in refugees, for reasons like this one:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/european-commission-backs-visa-free-travel-for-turks...
Quote:

BRUSSELS—The European Union’s executive body on Wednesday proposed controversial new asylum rules forcing member countries to take in refugees, and it gave a green light to visa-free travel for Turkey and Kosovo.

The new rules from the European Commission, which have ruffled feathers among central and Eastern European states, would require nations to pay €250,000 ($287,000) for each asylum seeker they refuse.

So the Eurocrats still feel entitled to dictate the immigration policy of member nations. Which figures, since they're not the ones affected by their own policies.

Well ... yet. Given the jihad attack at the Brussels airport and metro station, you have to wonder how long the EU's Grand Poohbahs can remain unscathed by the influx of untraceable Middle East Muslims that they've work so hard to import into Europe.

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:38pm:

Personally, I’d say sovereignty starts with citizens being well educated, but that’s just me.

Hmmm ... well, sovereignty might start there, but to me it has no meaning unless the citizens (through their leaders, at least) have the right to tell transnational entities, from the EU to the U.N., what they can do with their little edicts.

That's why Hungarian PM Viktor Orban is right on the money when he refuses to take Middle East refugees for reasons like this.
http://www.politico.eu/article/orban-hungary-migration-asylum-refugees/

"The goal of the [refugee] resettlement is to redraw Europe’s religious and cultural makeup, restructure its ethnic composition" and eliminate the nation state, Orbán warned ... "It is forbidden to say Brussels is craftily swallowing newer and newer slices of national sovereignty, that many in Brussels are working on a plan for the United States of Europe despite never having been asked to do so."

Tell it, brother!

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Dirty Paki Khunt

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Re: EU to seek empire
Reply #46 - Jul 7^th, 2016 at 12:06am

No, 4th, under your proposal, Brussels would still not do any "dictating" to sovereign states. All a visa on arrival for Turks would do is allow Turks to enter Europe’s passport-free Schengen zone.- with a Turkish passport.

Britain is not a signatory to this treaty. All entrants to Britain must still show their passports. If they’re not European, they must apply for a visa.

Yet another example of "minutae" that doesn’t stack up.

Brssels does not force member states to accept refugees, as your Hungaran example shows. All you’ve done is quote a politician meaninglessly railing against Brussels - a staple of Euro politics since the 1970s.

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« Last Edit: Jul 7^th, 2016 at 12:13am by Dirty Paki Khunt »

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The4thEstate

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Re: EU to seek empire
Reply #47 - Jul 7^th, 2016 at 11:43am

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 12:06am:

Brssels does not force member states to accept refugees, as your Hungaran example shows. All you’ve done is quote a politician meaninglessly railing against Brussels - a staple of Euro politics since the 1970s.

Well ... if Brussels doesn't force member states to accept refugees, then what's the point of this story in the Telegraph?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/eu-to-fine-countries-that-refuse-refu...

Quote:

The European Commission will impose fines of hundreds of millions of pounds on countries that do not take in refugees.

Jean-Claude Junker is tomorrow expected to unveil plans to impose a penalty of around €250,000 euros per rejected refugee, in a bid to salvage his botched migration quota scheme.

The European Commission is expected to propose on Wednesday that an emergency scheme to distribute 160,000 people around the bloc following the massive influx last summer be put on a permanent footing, with a quota system of allocations that kick in if there is another vast wave of migrants that overwhelms a country.

If the EU has the right to set refugee quotas and fine member nations for not living up to them, then it effectively is forcing these countries to accept refugees.

If the EU doesn't have the right (or the ability) to set refugee quotas and fine member nations for not living up to them, then it's a toothless entity whose days are numbered, if not already done.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by my "proposal" ... or what visas have to do with my last post. I'm not so much focusing on the U.K.'s visa policy as on how many thousands of refugees the EU is trying to shoehorn into British borders. (And for what? Since when is it Europe's obligation to take in everybody who crawls onto European shores?)

My point is, national sovereignty -- if the Brits have any -- means the right to tell the EU Poohbahs that if they care so much about Middle East refugees, they can put them up in Juncker's home.

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« Last Edit: Jul 7^th, 2016 at 11:48am by The4thEstate »

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Dirty Paki Khunt

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Re: EU to seek empire
Reply #48 - Jul 7^th, 2016 at 1:26pm

4th, the "plans" you’re describing are proposals. The reason they were "botched" is member states voted against them, just as Eastern European states say they’ll do next time.

The fine proposal is a way for the Northern European states to share the load of taking refugees in. I agree. If a country doesn’t want to settle refugees, it should not be penalised. This is a sovereignty issur. To date, the EU has not imposed refugees or fines on any of its member states. The EU does not have the power to make member states take refugees, or adhere to any imaginary quotas.

Your article clearly states that Britain is exhempt from these proposals "due to its historical opt-out on justice issues". Any refugee Britain takes in must get to the UK - not Europe. This is covered by Britain’s sovereign agreement with the UNHCR. It has nothing to do with the EU. The EU can’t make Britain take any refugees in, and nor do any refugees who make it to the European mainland have any right to enter the UK.

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Dirty Paki Khunt Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 103192	Re: EU to seek empire Reply #49 - Jul 8^th, 2016 at 10:46am Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
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The4thEstate

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Re: EU to seek empire
Reply #50 - Jul 8^th, 2016 at 2:41pm

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 1:26pm:

4th, the "plans" you’re describing are proposals. The reason they were "botched" is member states voted against them, just as Eastern European states say they’ll do next time.

The fine proposal is a way for the Northern European states to share the load of taking refugees in. I agree. If a country doesn’t want to settle refugees, it should not be penalised. This is a sovereignty issur. To date, the EU has not imposed refugees or fines on any of its member states. The EU does not have the power to make member states take refugees, or adhere to any imaginary quotas.

Your article clearly states that Britain is exhempt from these proposals "due to its historical opt-out on justice issues". Any refugee Britain takes in must get to the UK - not Europe. This is covered by Britain’s sovereign agreement with the UNHCR. It has nothing to do with the EU. The EU can’t make Britain take any refugees in, and nor do any refugees who make it to the European mainland have any right to enter the UK.

That's all well and good, but the following excerpt from a Daily Express article underscores my point: The Brits' disenchantment about immigration, and the effect of EU policies on their borders, had a major influence on the Brexit vote.

Quote:

Mr Farage described immigration as the "defining issue" of the EU referendum campaign and called for Britain to take control of its borders.

He said: "The fact that we can only control our borders if we leave the European Union, that we can only ever get an Australian-style points system as an independent country outside of the EU is clearly an argument that has massive appeal out there across the country."

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/676612/Brexit-what-happen-to-immigration-...

Which brings us back to sovereignty.

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The4thEstate Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 322 Flyover Country, U.S.A. Gender:	Re: EU to seek empire Reply #51 - Jul 8^th, 2016 at 2:43pm Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 10:46am: Ever get the feeling you've been cheated? What does that mean in the context of this discussion?
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Dirty Paki Khunt

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Re: EU to seek empire
Reply #52 - Jul 8^th, 2016 at 3:28pm

The4thEstate wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 2:41pm:

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 1:26pm:

4th, the "plans" you’re describing are proposals. The reason they were "botched" is member states voted against them, just as Eastern European states say they’ll do next time.

The fine proposal is a way for the Northern European states to share the load of taking refugees in. I agree. If a country doesn’t want to settle refugees, it should not be penalised. This is a sovereignty issur. To date, the EU has not imposed refugees or fines on any of its member states. The EU does not have the power to make member states take refugees, or adhere to any imaginary quotas.

Your article clearly states that Britain is exhempt from these proposals "due to its historical opt-out on justice issues". Any refugee Britain takes in must get to the UK - not Europe. This is covered by Britain’s sovereign agreement with the UNHCR. It has nothing to do with the EU. The EU can’t make Britain take any refugees in, and nor do any refugees who make it to the European mainland have any right to enter the UK.

That's all well and good, but the following excerpt from a Daily Express article underscores my point: The Brits' disenchantment about immigration, and the effect of EU policies on their borders, had a major influence on the Brexit vote.

But that's my point, 4th. The Brits got it wrong. The EU has absolutely nothing to do with the UK's refugee intake.

And that's what this means in the context of this discussion.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: EU to seek empire
Reply #53 - Jul 8^th, 2016 at 4:15pm

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 3:28pm:

The4thEstate wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 2:41pm:

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 1:26pm:

4th, the "plans" you’re describing are proposals. The reason they were "botched" is member states voted against them, just as Eastern European states say they’ll do next time.

The fine proposal is a way for the Northern European states to share the load of taking refugees in. I agree. If a country doesn’t want to settle refugees, it should not be penalised. This is a sovereignty issur. To date, the EU has not imposed refugees or fines on any of its member states. The EU does not have the power to make member states take refugees, or adhere to any imaginary quotas.

Your article clearly states that Britain is exhempt from these proposals "due to its historical opt-out on justice issues". Any refugee Britain takes in must get to the UK - not Europe. This is covered by Britain’s sovereign agreement with the UNHCR. It has nothing to do with the EU. The EU can’t make Britain take any refugees in, and nor do any refugees who make it to the European mainland have any right to enter the UK.

That's all well and good, but the following excerpt from a Daily Express article underscores my point: The Brits' disenchantment about immigration, and the effect of EU policies on their borders, had a major influence on the Brexit vote.

But that's my point, 4th. The Brits got it wrong. The EU has absolutely nothing to do with the UK's refugee intake.

And that's what this means in the context of this discussion.

But wasn't it EU workers (particularly Polish) living and working in the UK that caused the strong 'leave' vote, not refugees?

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The4thEstate

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Re: EU to seek empire
Reply #54 - Jul 8^th, 2016 at 4:29pm

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 3:28pm:

The4thEstate wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 2:41pm:

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 1:26pm:

4th, the "plans" you’re describing are proposals. The reason they were "botched" is member states voted against them, just as Eastern European states say they’ll do next time.

The fine proposal is a way for the Northern European states to share the load of taking refugees in. I agree. If a country doesn’t want to settle refugees, it should not be penalised. This is a sovereignty issur. To date, the EU has not imposed refugees or fines on any of its member states. The EU does not have the power to make member states take refugees, or adhere to any imaginary quotas.

Your article clearly states that Britain is exhempt from these proposals "due to its historical opt-out on justice issues". Any refugee Britain takes in must get to the UK - not Europe. This is covered by Britain’s sovereign agreement with the UNHCR. It has nothing to do with the EU. The EU can’t make Britain take any refugees in, and nor do any refugees who make it to the European mainland have any right to enter the UK.

That's all well and good, but the following excerpt from a Daily Express article underscores my point: The Brits' disenchantment about immigration, and the effect of EU policies on their borders, had a major influence on the Brexit vote.

But that's my point, 4th. The Brits got it wrong. The EU has absolutely nothing to do with the UK's refugee intake.

And that's what this means in the context of this discussion.

Well, let's say for the sake of argument that the EU does, in fact, have nothing to do with refugee intake in the UK and every other European nation.

If that's the case, then why does the EU even bother talking about setting refugee quotas and fining member nations for not adhering to them?

That would only reinforce the argument that the EU is a toothless entity that is becoming increasingly irrelevant by the day.

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Dirty Paki Khunt

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Re: EU to seek empire
Reply #55 - Jul 8^th, 2016 at 4:36pm

The4thEstate wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 4:29pm:

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 3:28pm:

The4thEstate wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 2:41pm:

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 7^th, 2016 at 1:26pm:

4th, the "plans" you’re describing are proposals. The reason they were "botched" is member states voted against them, just as Eastern European states say they’ll do next time.

The fine proposal is a way for the Northern European states to share the load of taking refugees in. I agree. If a country doesn’t want to settle refugees, it should not be penalised. This is a sovereignty issur. To date, the EU has not imposed refugees or fines on any of its member states. The EU does not have the power to make member states take refugees, or adhere to any imaginary quotas.

Your article clearly states that Britain is exhempt from these proposals "due to its historical opt-out on justice issues". Any refugee Britain takes in must get to the UK - not Europe. This is covered by Britain’s sovereign agreement with the UNHCR. It has nothing to do with the EU. The EU can’t make Britain take any refugees in, and nor do any refugees who make it to the European mainland have any right to enter the UK.

That's all well and good, but the following excerpt from a Daily Express article underscores my point: The Brits' disenchantment about immigration, and the effect of EU policies on their borders, had a major influence on the Brexit vote.

But that's my point, 4th. The Brits got it wrong. The EU has absolutely nothing to do with the UK's refugee intake.

And that's what this means in the context of this discussion.

Well, let's say for the sake of argument that the EU does, in fact, have nothing to do with refugee intake in the UK and every other European nation.

If that's the case, then why does the EU even bother talking about setting refugee quotas and fining member nations for not adhering to them?

That would only reinforce the argument that the EU is a toothless entity that is becoming increasingly irrelevant by the day.

Not for the sake of argument, 4th, it doesn't. Nor does the EU fine member states over refugees. Again, this is just a proposal. It doesn't actually happen.

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The4thEstate

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Re: EU to seek empire
Reply #56 - Jul 8^th, 2016 at 5:02pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 4:15pm:

But wasn't it EU workers (particularly Polish) living and working in the UK that caused the strong 'leave' vote, not refugees?

That might be part of it, but stories like this one suggest that the flood of migrants was a major factor in the Brexit vote:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/16/nigel-farage-defends-ukip-breaki...

Farage: “as you can see from this picture, most of the people coming are young males and, yes, they may be coming from countries that are not in a very happy state, they may be coming from places that are poorer than us, but the EU has made a fundamental error that risks the security of everybody.”

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: EU to seek empire
Reply #57 - Jul 8^th, 2016 at 5:07pm

The4thEstate wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 5:02pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 4:15pm:

But wasn't it EU workers (particularly Polish) living and working in the UK that caused the strong 'leave' vote, not refugees?

That might be part of it, but stories like this one suggest that the flood of migrants was a major factor in the Brexit vote:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/16/nigel-farage-defends-ukip-breaki...

Farage: “as you can see from this picture, most of the people coming are young males and, yes, they may be coming from countries that are not in a very happy state, they may be coming from places that are poorer than us, but the EU has made a fundamental error that risks the security of everybody.”

A complete paradox given that immigrants from the British Empire have been coming to the UK since the 50's...

And in the land of irony, how much imagination would it take to think of a scenario (with the UK outside the EU) where France allows refugees (deemed unlawful) to exit the EU from Calais to the closest non-EU nation (i.e. the UK)...

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The4thEstate

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Re: EU to seek empire
Reply #58 - Jul 8^th, 2016 at 5:27pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 5:07pm:

A complete paradox given that immigrants from the British Empire have been coming to the UK since the 50's...

Well, if I understand correctly, Pakistani Muslims have been coming there for quite a while, but they're not exactly helping their own cause with stuff like the Rotherham scandal (of course, the UK media uses the prim PC term "Asians").

So that might be a contributing factor as well.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 8^th, 2016 at 5:07pm:

And in the land of irony, how much imagination would it take to think of a scenario (with the UK outside the EU) where France allows refugees (deemed unlawful) to exit the EU from Calais to the closest non-EU nation (i.e. the UK)...

I can't imagine a British leader who would be stupid enough not to block their path and turn them back.

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Dirty Paki Khunt Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 103192	Re: EU to seek empire Reply #59 - Jul 8^th, 2016 at 5:47pm Pakistani migrants have nothing to do with the EU, 4th. But I’ll admit it’s genius that Brits think they do.
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