Australian Politics Forum - EU to seek empire

AiA Gold Member Offline Posts: 18405 Gender:	Re: EU to seek empire Reply #30 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:18pm Unions can work if they are loose/fuzzy and the member states share a common history and culture. Greece and Germany do not have this in common. No current EU states share anything with African nations, except a history of failed colonialism.
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Dirty Paki Khunt

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Re: EU to seek empire
Reply #31 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:38pm

The4thEstate wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 6:14pm:

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 5:51pm:

Quote:

Globalism and transnational oligarchies are out; national sovereignty is in

What does national sovereignty actually mean?

I'm curious. I look forward to a decent discussion on this.

I'll start it off. Vietnam has national sovereignty after it kicked out the French and the Yanks. Today, it sells off its national sovereignty to foreign manufacturers. Vietnam, a communist state, saw the need for foreign capital to develop. To do so, it fosters low-tax free trade zones, keeps down wages, and sells large swaths of its coastline off to Chinese hotel chains.

How does poverty create sovereignty?

Your example with regard to Vietnam suggests that it does not.

On the other hand, it's not as if nations don't reserve the right to reverse course and nationalize foreign investments, as in the 1970s:
http://www.merip.org/mer/mer100-101/arab-economies-1970s

Quote:

By the end of the decade, most Arab oil regimes (with the exception of Saudi Arabia) had nationalized their reserves and producing facilities and taken formal control of pricing and rates of production.

So perhaps a certain amount of foreign investment, or even foreign control of a nation's soil, can benefit the populace by providing them with more economic opportunities. I wouldn't support a total ban on foreign investment, but don't ask me where to draw the line.

My take on national sovereignty is that it enables the citizens of a country a better shot at determining their own future, as opposed to allowing, say, the EU to dictate how many "Syrian" refugees each member nation is required to take.

And that's better than being ruled by an oligarchy located outside your nation's borders, and that you and your fellow citizens had no part in electing. Blurred borders are the antithesis of personal freedom, and we should never be eager to serve some dictatorial global or transnational collective.

Thanks, 4th. An excellent response. We should have these discussions more often.

By the way, the EU does not take in refugees or immigrants. Only sovereign member states can do this.

This is an important point. Many Brits voted to exit the EU with this fallacy in mind.

Whoops.

Personally, I’d say sovereignty starts with citizens being well educated, but that’s just me.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Brexit: UK spiraling into recession as GBP dives
Reply #32 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:41pm

Squire wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 4:13pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 3:17pm:

The global trade argument is a fantasy. Global trade existed before there were ever any deals to tie countries into huge multilateral agreements and it will continue to exist after they fall apart.

At suc time as people come to see it has been all a part of an ideological movement to destroy national sovereignty and replace it with collectivist so-called progressive societies.

That has been the EU objective since maybe the 1960s when the idea of a common market was replaced with the idea of an ever expanding political union. That idea is now collapsing in upon itself. More & more people don't want it. They see the dangers of it.

But the progressives continue to push it and impose it where they can. The arrogance of the Eurocrats is astounding.

Common cause is why villages, cities and regions joined to form nations.

EU is the same principle. Establishing common objectives and eliminating obstacles to trade and employment across national borders.

UK has totally stuffed up and will probably descend into a recessionary spiral. The City of London financial centre will be hardest hit in finance, banking and insurance.

A recession is coming to UK. Thank you Boris, Nigel and David.

Anglos have been the second most successful people in making trade deals, acquiring markets etc. in the last 400 years (the Jews being number one), and now we're to believe that they can only get markets and trade deals through foreign bureaucrats? Laughable.

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Dirty Paki Khunt

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Re: EU to seek emipire
Reply #33 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:43pm

AiA wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:18pm:

Unions can work if they are loose/fuzzy and the member states share a common history and culture. Greece and Germany do not have this in common. No current EU states share anything with African nations, except a history of failed colonialism.

And yet, the US is in an.economic union with Mexico.

I’d say Greece and Germany have more history in common than NAFTA states, wouldn’t you?

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Dirty Paki Khunt

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Re: Brexit: UK spiraling into recession as GBP dives
Reply #34 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:47pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:41pm:

Squire wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 4:13pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 3:17pm:

The global trade argument is a fantasy. Global trade existed before there were ever any deals to tie countries into huge multilateral agreements and it will continue to exist after they fall apart.

At suc time as people come to see it has been all a part of an ideological movement to destroy national sovereignty and replace it with collectivist so-called progressive societies.

That has been the EU objective since maybe the 1960s when the idea of a common market was replaced with the idea of an ever expanding political union. That idea is now collapsing in upon itself. More & more people don't want it. They see the dangers of it.

But the progressives continue to push it and impose it where they can. The arrogance of the Eurocrats is astounding.

Common cause is why villages, cities and regions joined to form nations.

EU is the same principle. Establishing common objectives and eliminating obstacles to trade and employment across national borders.

UK has totally stuffed up and will probably descend into a recessionary spiral. The City of London financial centre will be hardest hit in finance, banking and insurance.

A recession is coming to UK. Thank you Boris, Nigel and David.

Anglos have been the second most successful people in making trade deals, acquiring markets etc. in the last 400 years (the Jews being number one), and now we're to believe that they can only get markets and trade deals through foreign bureaucrats? Laughable.

And in the preceeding 400 years, you’ll find the top two places being occupied by Arabs and Chinks.- with the Venetians a distant third.

Who do you think will take over in the next 400 years, Mistie?

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Brexit: UK spiraling into recession as GBP dives
Reply #35 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:55pm

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:47pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:41pm:

Squire wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 4:13pm:

bogarde73 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 3:17pm:

The global trade argument is a fantasy. Global trade existed before there were ever any deals to tie countries into huge multilateral agreements and it will continue to exist after they fall apart.

At suc time as people come to see it has been all a part of an ideological movement to destroy national sovereignty and replace it with collectivist so-called progressive societies.

That has been the EU objective since maybe the 1960s when the idea of a common market was replaced with the idea of an ever expanding political union. That idea is now collapsing in upon itself. More & more people don't want it. They see the dangers of it.

But the progressives continue to push it and impose it where they can. The arrogance of the Eurocrats is astounding.

Common cause is why villages, cities and regions joined to form nations.

EU is the same principle. Establishing common objectives and eliminating obstacles to trade and employment across national borders.

UK has totally stuffed up and will probably descend into a recessionary spiral. The City of London financial centre will be hardest hit in finance, banking and insurance.

A recession is coming to UK. Thank you Boris, Nigel and David.

Anglos have been the second most successful people in making trade deals, acquiring markets etc. in the last 400 years (the Jews being number one), and now we're to believe that they can only get markets and trade deals through foreign bureaucrats? Laughable.

And in the preceeding 400 years, you’ll find the top two places being occupied by Arabs and Chinks.- with the Venetians a distant third.

Who do you think will take over in the next 400 years, Mistie?

No need to worry about the Arabs, as they are stupid and create nothing anyone wants to buy. Once their oil runs out, they're f*cked. There is the potential for the 'Chinks' to be a top player, but they've got to be innovative. Just making cheap plastic junk isn't a recipe global market domination. The U.S. will maintain their dominance for the foreseeable future.

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AiA

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Re: EU to seek emipire
Reply #36 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 9:26pm

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:43pm:

And yet, the US is in an.economic union with Mexico.

I’d say Greece and Germany have more history in common than NAFTA states, wouldn’t you?

Personally, I think NAFTA is a mistake - but - it is a loose/fuzzy union: Mexico City does not dictate taxes on alcohol in New York City.

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AiA

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Re: Brexit: UK spiraling into recession as GBP dives
Reply #37 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 9:27pm

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:47pm:

Anglos have been the second most successful people in making trade deals, acquiring markets etc. in the last 400 years (the Jews being number one), and now we're to believe that they can only get markets and trade deals through foreign bureaucrats? Laughable.

My thoughts exactly. But. Anglos will have to step up and reclaim their "heritage" and that is not a popular idea, i.e. Anglosphere.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Brexit: UK spiraling into recession as GBP dives Reply #38 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 9:44pm Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:55pm: here is the potential for the 'Chinks' to be a top player, Joseph Needham would have agreed.
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Dirty Paki Khunt

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Re: EU to seek emipire
Reply #39 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 10:10pm

AiA wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 9:26pm:

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:43pm:

And yet, the US is in an.economic union with Mexico.

I’d say Greece and Germany have more history in common than NAFTA states, wouldn’t you?

Personally, I think NAFTA is a mistake - but - it is a loose/fuzzy union: Mexico City does not dictate taxes on alcohol in New York City.

Strange. Nor does the EU. Mother has the most expensive - and worst - beer in the EU, and it’s all thanks to their nanny-state ale tax.

New York and Mexico, by comparison, have bugger all taxes on beer.

And yes, the Mexican beer is far superior to that weak Yank muck.

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Re: EU to seek emipire
Reply #40 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 10:23pm

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 10:10pm:

AiA wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 9:26pm:

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:43pm:

And yet, the US is in an.economic union with Mexico.

I’d say Greece and Germany have more history in common than NAFTA states, wouldn’t you?

Personally, I think NAFTA is a mistake - but - it is a loose/fuzzy union: Mexico City does not dictate taxes on alcohol in New York City.

Strange. Nor does the EU. Mother has the most expensive - and worst - beer in the EU, and it’s all thanks to their nanny-state ale tax.

New York and Mexico, by comparison, have bugger all taxes on beer.

And yes, the Mexican beer is far superior to that weak Yank muck.

My point wasn't beer, but the Scottish alcohol pricing plan did breach EU law. Mexico City does not dictate the minutiae in NYC. Brussels does dictate the minutiae in Glasgow.

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Dirty Paki Khunt

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Re: EU to seek emipire
Reply #41 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 10:36pm

AiA wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 10:23pm:

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 10:10pm:

AiA wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 9:26pm:

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 8:43pm:

And yet, the US is in an.economic union with Mexico.

I’d say Greece and Germany have more history in common than NAFTA states, wouldn’t you?

Personally, I think NAFTA is a mistake - but - it is a loose/fuzzy union: Mexico City does not dictate taxes on alcohol in New York City.

Strange. Nor does the EU. Mother has the most expensive - and worst - beer in the EU, and it’s all thanks to their nanny-state ale tax.

New York and Mexico, by comparison, have bugger all taxes on beer.

And yes, the Mexican beer is far superior to that weak Yank muck.

My point wasn't beer, but the Scottish alcohol pricing plan did breach EU law. Mexico City does not dictate the minutiae in NYC. Brussels does dictate the minutiae in Glasgow.

No, it only effects the price of Scottish booze sold in Europe, not Britain.. The UK has among the highest booze and tobacco taxes in Europe.

If you ask me, they should listen to Europe. A half liter of beer costs a Euro in most of Europe. In England, it’s nearly triple the price.

What else would all those Pommy booze-shopping busses be doing in Callais?

Not for long, eh?

Sovereignty.

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Dirty Paki Khunt

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Re: EU to seek empire
Reply #42 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 10:58pm

A more important global issue is medicine. Britain provides free medication to.all its residents under the NHS. This is perfectly legal in the EU, even.though other European states have much less generous public health schemes.

The Trans Pacific Partnership, if you remember, stalled over this very point. Australia wanted to keep its PBS. The pharmaceutical lobby in the US wanted to screw us.

When Trump talks about scrapping the TPP, it’s over issues like this. He wants a better dear for American intellectual property, which inevitably means a worse deal for our own sovereignty.

Remember, the business of America is business, not the welfare of Americans. The Donald Trumps of the US empire will always fight for their interests, not the American - or Australian people.

This is why Trump has a policy to overturn universal health cover, which he disparagingly calls "Obamacare". He wants a better deal for the insurance and pharmaceutical lobbies.

Sovereignty, innit.

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AiA Gold Member Offline Posts: 18405 Gender:	Re: EU to seek empire Reply #43 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 10:59pm You are missing the point regarding the EU dictating minutiae in member states. NAFTA does cannot do that.
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Dirty Paki Khunt Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 103192	Re: EU to seek empire Reply #44 - Jul 6^th, 2016 at 11:07pm AiA wrote on Jul 6^th, 2016 at 10:59pm: You are missing the point regarding the EU dictating minutiae in member states. NAFTA does cannot do that. Feel free to provide a real example, AiA. Remember, Poms just voted to leave the EU based on such mistaken, tabloid-inspired "minutae". Whoops.
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