Australian Politics Forum - Istanbul airport bombing

polite_gandalf

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Re: Istanbul airport bombing
Reply #15 - Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:28pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 2:12pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 1:10pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29^th, 2016 at 1:14pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jun 29^th, 2016 at 12:45pm:

The West has many ailments, but Islam has cancer. They need to start cutting it out.

Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society.

It used to be. It reached its peak in secularism in the late 1970s. Religion emerged (again) in the early 1980s in an attempt to try to halt the violent fighting between the left and right. Since Erdogan came to power religion has become more and more prominent.

Misty you are drawing a false dichotomy here.

You are right that religion has become more prominent, but wrong to equate that with lack of liberty, or even 'liberal mindedness'. The great late President Turgut Ozal was a devout muslim, and also a believer in liberty and private enterprise. Whats important to note though, is that he actually saw the two as complimentary - as any muslim from the rationalist school will tell you. Through his notion of "the three freedom" - ideas, religion and enterprise -Ozal sought to build a Turkish economy that was pro-enterprise and pro-liberty, using Islam as the vehicle. Thus begat the era of the new Islamic Turkish revival - based on freedom and enterprise. Which was really just a continuation of the same Islamic ideals carried by the 'Young Ottomans' in the 19th and early 20th century, before militant secularists such as the 'Young Turks' took over.

In fact Ozal's, and later Erdogan's AKPs vision of Islam's role as an enabler of economic and personal freedoms, has a strong scholarly basis, through such works as the 'hadith project'.

But whats really funny here is for you to speak disparagingly of 'Turkish Islamism' in the context of liberty. What a joke - given the regard the Kemalists had and still have for Turkish people's liberties! Turks today enjoy far more freedom and democracy today under the 'Islamists' than they did under the anti-Islam secularists - and its precisely because of Islam.

Do gays get "liberty" under Islamic rulership? What about atheists and the many other minorities??

Mr Hammer you'll be pleased to know that since the mid 19th century, Islamist rulers in Turkey have been the best friend of minorities. For example during the 19th century, before the secularists took over:

- all subjects of the Ottoman Empire were granted equal status before the law - regardless of race or religion
- apostasy was legalised
- non-Islamic religions were protected
- homosexuality was legalised

Basically, over the last century or so, its been the Islamists who protect individual rights liberties in Turkey, and the secularists who take them away.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Istanbul airport bombing
Reply #16 - Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:33pm

Quantum wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 2:54pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 1:10pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29^th, 2016 at 1:14pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jun 29^th, 2016 at 12:45pm:

The West has many ailments, but Islam has cancer. They need to start cutting it out.

Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society.

It used to be. It reached its peak in secularism in the late 1970s. Religion emerged (again) in the early 1980s in an attempt to try to halt the violent fighting between the left and right. Since Erdogan came to power religion has become more and more prominent.

Misty you are drawing a false dichotomy here.

You are right that religion has become more prominent, but wrong to equate that with lack of liberty, or even 'liberal mindedness'. The great late President Turgut Ozal was a devout muslim, and also a believer in liberty and private enterprise. Whats important to note though, is that he actually saw the two as complimentary - as any muslim from the rationalist school will tell you. Through his notion of "the three freedom" - ideas, religion and enterprise -Ozal sought to build a Turkish economy that was pro-enterprise and pro-liberty, using Islam as the vehicle. Thus begat the era of the new Islamic Turkish revival - based on freedom and enterprise. Which was really just a continuation of the same Islamic ideals carried by the 'Young Ottomans' in the 19th and early 20th century, before militant secularists such as the 'Young Turks' took over.

In fact Ozal's, and later Erdogan's AKPs vision of Islam's role as an enabler of economic and personal freedoms, has a strong scholarly basis, through such works as the 'hadith project'.

But whats really funny here is for you to speak disparagingly of 'Turkish Islamism' in the context of liberty. What a joke - given the regard the Kemalists had and still have for Turkish people's liberties! Turks today enjoy far more freedom and democracy today under the 'Islamists' than they did under the anti-Islam secularists - and its precisely because of Islam.

Just to be clear, you're arguing that Erdogan has used Islam to bring about liberty and freedom, and Turkey today is progressing towards being a nation with even more freedoms?

Generally yes. Who do you think it was who banned women wearing the veil from attending university? Who do you think lifted that ban? Now women are free to go to university and wear what they want - thanks to the 'Islamists'.

Shall I go through the long list of religious practices that the Kemalists banned, which the Islamists lifted? The people who were persecuted, who are no longer? Has the Islamist's removal of Islamic persecution resulted in the persecution of non-Islamic behaviour? I don't think so - but if I'm wrong, please show me where this has been the case.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Quantum

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Re: Istanbul airport bombing
Reply #17 - Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:45pm

I can't believe what I'm reading.

The Arabs revolted against the Turks and the Armenia's were killed by the hundreds of thousands, but apparently everyone was treated equally in the Ottoman Empire. Today Erdogan is locking up journalist, persecuting gays, shutting down peaceful protests, but apparently he is helping bring more freedoms to the country.

What a load of crap. Nothing but obvious Muslim propaganda.

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GordyL

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Re: Istanbul airport bombing
Reply #18 - Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:02pm

Quantum wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:45pm:

I can't believe what I'm reading.

The Arabs revolted against the Turks and the Armenia's were killed by the hundreds of thousands, but apparently everyone was treated equally in the Ottoman Empire. Today Erdogan is locking up journalist, persecuting gays, shutting down peaceful protests, but apparently he is helping bring more freedoms to the country.

What a load of crap. Nothing but obvious Muslim propaganda.

Are we including the Greeks that were killed?

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On the Ning Nang Nong
Where the Cows go Bong!
and the monkeys all say BOO!

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 46206	Re: Istanbul airport bombing Reply #19 - Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:06pm I always find it so interesting when those who are so ignorant of a subject chose to comment about it, ignoring what the original poster said about it.
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Lisa Jones

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Re: Istanbul airport bombing
Reply #20 - Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:22pm

GordyL wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:02pm:

Quantum wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:45pm:

I can't believe what I'm reading.

The Arabs revolted against the Turks and the Armenia's were killed by the hundreds of thousands, but apparently everyone was treated equally in the Ottoman Empire. Today Erdogan is locking up journalist, persecuting gays, shutting down peaceful protests, but apparently he is helping bring more freedoms to the country.

What a load of crap. Nothing but obvious Muslim propaganda.

Are we including the Greeks that were killed?

Or the Armenians for that matter?

That's 2 genocides right there.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Melanias purse

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Re: Istanbul airport bombing
Reply #21 - Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:29pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:28pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 2:12pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 1:10pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 29^th, 2016 at 1:14pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jun 29^th, 2016 at 12:45pm:

The West has many ailments, but Islam has cancer. They need to start cutting it out.

Turkey is proving remarkably successful at advancing a progressive, liberal-minded Islamic culture into their society.

It used to be. It reached its peak in secularism in the late 1970s. Religion emerged (again) in the early 1980s in an attempt to try to halt the violent fighting between the left and right. Since Erdogan came to power religion has become more and more prominent.

Misty you are drawing a false dichotomy here.

You are right that religion has become more prominent, but wrong to equate that with lack of liberty, or even 'liberal mindedness'. The great late President Turgut Ozal was a devout muslim, and also a believer in liberty and private enterprise. Whats important to note though, is that he actually saw the two as complimentary - as any muslim from the rationalist school will tell you. Through his notion of "the three freedom" - ideas, religion and enterprise -Ozal sought to build a Turkish economy that was pro-enterprise and pro-liberty, using Islam as the vehicle. Thus begat the era of the new Islamic Turkish revival - based on freedom and enterprise. Which was really just a continuation of the same Islamic ideals carried by the 'Young Ottomans' in the 19th and early 20th century, before militant secularists such as the 'Young Turks' took over.

In fact Ozal's, and later Erdogan's AKPs vision of Islam's role as an enabler of economic and personal freedoms, has a strong scholarly basis, through such works as the 'hadith project'.

But whats really funny here is for you to speak disparagingly of 'Turkish Islamism' in the context of liberty. What a joke - given the regard the Kemalists had and still have for Turkish people's liberties! Turks today enjoy far more freedom and democracy today under the 'Islamists' than they did under the anti-Islam secularists - and its precisely because of Islam.

Do gays get "liberty" under Islamic rulership? What about atheists and the many other minorities??

Mr Hammer you'll be pleased to know that since the mid 19th century, Islamist rulers in Turkey have been the best friend of minorities.

Yes, that should make Homo happy. He's a staunch defender of the rights of minorities.

Just like FD is a crusader for women's rights, no?

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Brian Ross

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Re: Istanbul airport bombing
Reply #22 - Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:33pm

It is interesting what Ataturk had to say about and whom he blamed for the Armenian Genocide:

Quote:

These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule. […] They have hitherto lived on plunder, robbery and bribery and become inimical to any idea, or suggestion to enlist in useful labor and earn their living by the honest sweat of their brow… Under the cloak of the opposition party, this element, who forced our country into the Great War against the will of the people, who caused the shedding of rivers of blood of the Turkish youth...

[Source]

Appears to me that the previous Caliph, who ruled Turkey until being deposed in 1908, had a relatively benign consideration of the things that Gandalf mentioned:

Quote:

- all subjects of the Ottoman Empire were granted equal status before the law - regardless of race or religion
- apostasy was legalised
- non-Islamic religions were protected
- homosexuality was legalised

Whereas the Young Turks and Attaturk who succeeded him, overturned many of those aspects of Turkish life. Roll Eyes

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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using posting to the general forum now. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Istanbul airport bombing
Reply #23 - Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:34pm

Quantum wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:45pm:

I can't believe what I'm reading.

Today Erdogan is locking up journalist, persecuting gays, shutting down peaceful protests, but apparently he is helping bring more freedoms to the country.

What a load of crap. Nothing but obvious Muslim propaganda.

Yep. İ won't bother responding to Gandalf.
Turkey will also regulalry block Facebook and You Tube. There's a block on them at the moment due to the recent terrorist attack. Porn is also blocked in Turkey. Whenever there's a protest in Turkey, police with water canons and tear gas break it up. The people themselves are also quite conservative. Women always wear long clothes, covering their arms and legs.

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GordyL Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4365 Hate Town Gender:	Re: Istanbul airport bombing Reply #24 - Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:37pm Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press
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Postmodern Trendoid III Gold Member Offline Posts: 10300 Gender:	Re: Istanbul airport bombing Reply #25 - Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:57pm İf anyone is interested, the bombers were from Tajikistan. The police suspected one of the bombers before he could get too far. He was wearing a thick jacket in 30+ degree heat. Once the police suspected him he opened fire. Maybe that was the clown that blew himself up on the You Tube clip posted above.
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Lisa Jones

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Re: Istanbul airport bombing
Reply #26 - Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:59pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:22pm:

GordyL wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:02pm:

Quantum wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 4:45pm:

I can't believe what I'm reading.

The Arabs revolted against the Turks and the Armenia's were killed by the hundreds of thousands, but apparently everyone was treated equally in the Ottoman Empire. Today Erdogan is locking up journalist, persecuting gays, shutting down peaceful protests, but apparently he is helping bring more freedoms to the country.

What a load of crap. Nothing but obvious Muslim propaganda.

Are we including the Greeks that were killed?

Or the Armenians for that matter?

That's 2 genocides right there.

And any nong who attempts to minimise/trivialize/excuse these 2 genocides will be treated with contempt and disdain.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 46206	Re: Istanbul airport bombing Reply #27 - Jun 30^th, 2016 at 6:00pm GordyL wrote on Jun 30^th, 2016 at 5:37pm: Love how the Ottomans are are regarded as the pinnacle of modern Islam. Pitty they couldn't even get their heads around the printing press Really?
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freediver

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Re: Istanbul airport bombing
Reply #28 - Jun 30^th, 2016 at 6:24pm

Great insight there Brian. Some of the reasons given for the Ottoman's late taking to the printing press:

* it would put the scribes out of work
* they liked pretty caligraphy
* people who were keen on books belong to a "certain class" just like today
* the scribes could copy books rapidly
* Muslims opened their first printing press in 1727 (1400s in Europe)
* the Ottomans "knew about" printing presses for a long time before setting one up

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Istanbul airport bombing
Reply #29 - Jun 30^th, 2016 at 6:26pm

It's unusual for gandalf to so openly suffer a nervous breakdown as he has here, and I hope all of you will join with me in wishing him a hasty recovery.

Erdogan has famously been on a course to de-Westernise Turkey through increased Islamisation in all aspects of society.

Freedom of the Press

Women’s advocacy groups have for years been warning the government about the sharp deterioration in gender equality and freedoms. But for the most part their voices have fallen on deaf ears. In the past 10 years the number of gender-related homicides has tripled in Turkey. Between 2003 and 2013 domestic violence has increased more than 1,400%. In the Global Gender Gap report Turkey ranks 125th among 142 countries. It still holds the lowest position among OECD countries.

Women's lowly status

The Turkish government not only has remained unresponsive to these complaints, but has carried out a deliberate policy of harassment and intimidation to force thousands of Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians and Jews to abandon their homes and businesses and relocate overseas.

Oppression of minorities

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