Frank wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 8:51pm:


It is possible and it has been proven to be possible - through the rule of the Mutazilites in the early Caliphate period, where freedom of thought, acceptance of diversity and a rational (rather than dogmatic) interpretation of Islamic doctrine reigned supreme. And it happened again under the very Islamic liberalization of the Ottoman Empire from the mid 19th century - before the empire was seized by radical secularists who were hostile to Islam. Today there is a radical Hanbali-inspired Islamic school that has unfortunately been given disproportionate prominence - due to petro-dollars, which have been used to spread intolerant Hanbali doctrine all over the Islamic world, as well as jihadists and hate-preachers. They have also ruthlessly filled a vacuum that was left after centuries of decline in progressive Islamic political and intellectual movements. But just because progressive and rational Islam has lost prominence because of political factors, doesn't mean it never existed, or that it won't make a comeback. And you perpetuate the entirely vacuous argument that because extremist ideology is so strong today, it is therefore the "true" interpretation of Islamic doctrine.

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 7:35am:


Getting a bit old FD. You really need to find some new material.

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 7:35am:


Here's where you need to educate yourself on Islamic history. The Murjiites, the predecessors of the rationalist school of the mutazilites, means "postponers"- who believed that all punishment for sins was a matter between the individual and God, and therefore should be "postoned" until the hereafter. Or in other words, their belief was in complete freedom of the individual, and no worldly punishment for sinful behaviour was justified (provided it didn't adversely affect others of course).

The Murjiites combined with the Qadariyah (free will) school and morphed into the Mutazilites, who for around two centuries became the dominant political and ideological force in the Caliphate. It embraced the Murjiite notion of freedom for the individual and grounded it in theology, emphasising the Quranic themes of rationality/reasoning  (Qiyas) and rejection of dogma. That the fall of the Mutazilites happened at around the same time the Ahadith started to be canonised is not a coincidence. And with the rise of dogma through the elevation of the sunna, or 'traditions' (hence the followers were known as 'traditionalists'), there developed a schism within Islamdom between the rationalists and the traditionalists. Fatefully, the rationalists, lashed out in the worst possible way - attempting to persecute the traditionalists in Islam's version of the Spanish Inquisition - known as the "Mihna". Not surprisingly, the attempted persecution elevated the rationalists to martyr status amongst much of the population, and thereafter marked the steady rise and rise of the traditionalists - and of course today they reign supreme.

Long story short, the 'backwardness' of Islam has not always been, nor should it be assumed to be inherent in the religion. It has been liberal and progressive before, and it can (and will) be again.

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 1:11pm:


There was a time when you used to "push it" too FD. I remember seeing articles from 2007 you used to optimistically post about Islamic reform movements. Now they must be relentlessly mocked - as well as the people who refer to them.

Serious question to both you and Frank - what is your issue with progressive muslims - is it that you think we are more interested in face-saving than trully reforming the religion, or is it you think the project is completely futile given the true nature of Islamic doctrine, that we must be made laughing stocks?

Or is it that you are actually afraid that if you had to acknowledge "good" muslims who are trying to do the right thing, it would burst your bubble about the homogenous "other" with the hive mind?

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 1:11pm:


Don't forget the inbreeding map FD - its been over a week since you posted that.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 10:21am:


The liberals are taking Islam away from its source but the re-primitivisers always get the upper hand because they always insist on going back to the source. The source is barbaric.

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 1:58pm:


I can but prosecute my case FD. I have had productive discussions with some, not so productive with others. Whether or not they are "convinced" by my arguments is a matter for them. For as we all know, the Quran says there is no compulsion in religion.

For the last 15 or so years the Christians and their apologists have lied to us with the, it's got nuffin to do wif Christianity, fallacy.

How long are they going to keep it up?

Christianity religiously inspired human rights atrocities, of the worst kind imaginable, have simply intensified to inconceivable levels, you would not think it possible that people could descend to the depths of depravity the Christians have, right around the globe.

Yet this means nothing to Christians and their apologists: how sick in the head are they  to think they can tell Christians the commands, teachings, verses and tenets of Christianity, absolutely don't mean what they say?

Are they insane, hate filled lying bigots, or simply too stupid to know what they are doing?

How long do they think the rest of the world is going to put up with them?   

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 8:29pm:


Yes. Whats your point?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 11:44pm:



gandalf,

The statements which you make above are a pure fantasy.

Yadda paraphrases.....

"ISLAM at one time expressed itself in tolerance to other ideas."

Pure fantasy, imo.



Like the fantasy claims found within the 'inerrant' Koran,     ...claims about the virtuous character of 'the moslem', and the virtuous character of Mohammed.


as per......
"Ye [moslems] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors."
Koran 3.110


"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah [i.e. Mohammed] a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah."
Koran 33.021


gandalf,

QUESTION;
Are the two Koran quotes above, those Koran quotes which refer to the virtuous character of 'the moslem', and the virtuous character of Mohammed, correct and authentic ???


If so, then what makes the other content of the Koran spurious ?

You know what parts of the Koran, that i am referring to.

The verses which command never ending hatred and warfare against disbelievers, BECAUSE THEY ARE DISBELIEVERS.

For example;


"There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone"....."
Koran 60:4


"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred...."
Koran 58.22


"O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers."
Koran 9.23


"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them."
Koran 3.28







"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29


"Fighting [against disbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111