Australian Politics Forum - Brexit - the demographic issue

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Brexit - the demographic issue
Reply #255 - Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:04am

Quantum wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:02am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 12:52am:

Quantum wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 12:50am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 12:47am:

Quantum wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 12:44am:

The USA will remove their closest ally and put someone in that makes China happy? That's good business for the US is it?

Many nations claim to be the US 'closest ally'... Like Canada and Australia, France, Israel... Its rhetoric.

Except that the USA and the UK have held each other's dick since WW2. That includes reach arounds on the security council. Why the hell is the USA going throw that away?

You are looking for an issue where there is none and are coming up with some pretty bloody weird arguments to support it.

Really? And yet you're the one talking about dick holding and reach arounds...

Because your position is a joke.

*UK leaving the EU may cause Scotland to break away from the UK
*Scotland breaking away could make England irrelevant.
*An irrelevant England would be an embarrassment on the security council.
*Out of embarrassment the USA would push to replace the UK (England) on the security council with someone that China wants.

There is a reason why the above argument is limited to this forum. No one in the enitre smacking world except you is thinking this might happen.

Nearly all of those arguments have been raised as possibilities in the UK.

The US is not hostile to the proposition of India and Brazil on the council.

Your argument for England remaining is that the US likes its dick being held by England (Nothing embarrassing or Freudian there?)

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Brexit - the demographic issue Reply #256 - Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:04am .
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Quantum

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Re: Brexit - the demographic issue
Reply #257 - Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:06am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:00am:

Quantum wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 12:57am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 12:51am:

Quantum wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 12:47am:

Yeah, because Brazil is in a much better position than the UK Roll Eyes

5 seats, 3 are NATO. The NATO 3 are not going to screw each other over to make China happy.

India is a powerful nation and arguably hostile to China... Yet the Chinese (ever the pragmatists) would not be likely to object to India's elevation to the security council.

I can see the US argument for this now,

"Let's remove someone who always votes with us and who with have had an unbelievably strong relationship with, and let's replace them with an unstable element that the Chinese are happy with"

I wonder if they would demote or just shoot the idiot that suggest this? They would have to at least give them a psychological test...

You seem to think that the security council is a nostalgia club for WW2 veterans...

The security council is about realpolitik... Nothing personal, just business.

And replacing someone who you are always in agreement with, with the preference of someone who you always disagree with, is good for business?

HOW? HOW THE F?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Brexit - the demographic issue
Reply #258 - Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:09am

Quantum wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:06am:

And replacing someone who you are always in agreement with, with the preference of someone who you always disagree with, is good for business?

HOW? HOW THE bugger?

Your argument is about the US being the power behind England... Making England a US puppet (Nothing humiliating there?)

Why would a friendly nation like India (the world's largest democracy) not agree on most issues with the US?

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Quantum

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Re: Brexit - the demographic issue
Reply #259 - Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:15am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:04am:

Quantum wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:02am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 12:52am:

Quantum wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 12:50am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 12:47am:

Quantum wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 12:44am:

The USA will remove their closest ally and put someone in that makes China happy? That's good business for the US is it?

Many nations claim to be the US 'closest ally'... Like Canada and Australia, France, Israel... Its rhetoric.

Except that the USA and the UK have held each other's dick since WW2. That includes reach arounds on the security council. Why the hell is the USA going throw that away?

You are looking for an issue where there is none and are coming up with some pretty bloody weird arguments to support it.

Really? And yet you're the one talking about dick holding and reach arounds...

Because your position is a joke.

*UK leaving the EU may cause Scotland to break away from the UK
*Scotland breaking away could make England irrelevant.
*An irrelevant England would be an embarrassment on the security council.
*Out of embarrassment the USA would push to replace the UK (England) on the security council with someone that China wants.

There is a reason why the above argument is limited to this forum. No one in the enitre smacking world except you is thinking this might happen.

Nearly all of those arguments have been raised as possibilities in the UK.

The US is not hostile to the proposition of India and Brazil on the council.

Your argument for England remaining is that the US likes its dick being held by England (Nothing embarrassing or Freudian there?)

No, my argument is that England is no less important on the world stage than Scotland+England. Scotland is basically irrelevant to the UK as far as its role on the security council in concerned.

France (NATO) and the USA (NATO) are not going to let the UK (NATO) be replaced by someone China wants. It is so ridiculous it's laughable. Even more insane in the idea that if room had to be made at the table and the USA couldn't get rid of Russia or China, that it would push the UK off before it pushed France. From the USA point of view, the UK is the one on the table it needs the most.

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Quantum

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Re: Brexit - the demographic issue
Reply #260 - Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:21am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:09am:

Quantum wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:06am:

And replacing someone who you are always in agreement with, with the preference of someone who you always disagree with, is good for business?

HOW? HOW THE bugger?

Your argument is about the US being the power behind England... Making England a US puppet (Nothing humiliating there?)

Why would a friendly nation like India (the world's largest democracy) not agree on most issues with the US?

Firstly, it not about the UK being a puppet. It's the fact that the Uk and the USA have the same agenda on the world stage. They are in agreement on most things. Why the hell would you replace them with someone with a different agenda, and even worse, someone China is happy with?

Secondly, let's assume the UK is the USA puppet. Why the hell would the USA push their puppet out for a nation that does its own thing. It would be the stupidest strategy in history.

What ever way you go with the relationship between the USA and UK, there is no way the USA would agree to replace the Uk with someone China wants.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Brexit - the demographic issue
Reply #261 - Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:22am

Quantum wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:15am:

No, my argument is that England is no less important on the world stage than Scotland+England. Scotland is basically irrelevant to the UK as far as its role on the security council in concerned.

France (NATO) and the USA (NATO) are not going to let the UK (NATO) be replaced by someone China wants. It is so ridiculous it's laughable. Even more insane in the idea that if room had to be made at the table and the USA couldn't get rid of Russia or China, that it would push the UK off before it pushed France. From the USA point of view, the UK is the one on the table it needs the most.

The US can abstain or not veto a vote to remove England to make way for nations that are more relevant to world peace, like India... Which you are implying is friendly to China and hostile to the US (the reverse is more accurate).

The security council is not a nostalgia club for WW2 vets... its driven by realpolitik.... There are 7+ billion of us in the world... Don't you think the unrepresented and increasingly powerful developing nations deserve their time on the security council?

If and when England becomes less relevant, its position will be challenged... You can count on it.

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Marla Gold Member Offline A joint a day keeps the MAGA away Posts: 15022 Colorado Gender:	Re: Brexit - the demographic issue Reply #262 - Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:25am NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:09am: Your argument is about the US being the power behind England... Making England a US puppet (Nothing humiliating there?) England has (and has always been) the financial controlling power behind America.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Brexit - the demographic issue
Reply #263 - Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:29am

Marla wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:25am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:09am:

Your argument is about the US being the power behind England... Making England a US puppet (Nothing humiliating there?)

England has (and has always been) the financial controlling power behind America.

That sounds a bit like one of those American conspiracy theories about the UK and the British monarchy wanting to take back the colonies!

Maynard Keynes would have disagreed with you... He went to Washington after WW2 to demand that the US forgive the debt owed to the US by Britain (which was bankrupt) based on the argument that Britain stuck it out alone against Hitler... Truman thought otherwise!

Britain didn't pay of the debt, I believe until the early 2000s.

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Quantum

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Re: Brexit - the demographic issue
Reply #264 - Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:34am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:22am:

Quantum wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:15am:

No, my argument is that England is no less important on the world stage than Scotland+England. Scotland is basically irrelevant to the UK as far as its role on the security council in concerned.

France (NATO) and the USA (NATO) are not going to let the UK (NATO) be replaced by someone China wants. It is so ridiculous it's laughable. Even more insane in the idea that if room had to be made at the table and the USA couldn't get rid of Russia or China, that it would push the UK off before it pushed France. From the USA point of view, the UK is the one on the table it needs the most.

The US can abstain or not veto a vote to remove England to make way for nations that are more relevant to world peace, like India... Which you are implying is friendly to China and hostile to the US (the reverse is more accurate).

The security council is not a nostalgia club for WW2 vets... its driven by realpolitik.... There are 7+ billion of us in the world... Don't you think the unrepresented and increasingly powerful developing nations deserve their time on the security council?

If and when England becomes less relevant, its position will be challenged... You can count on it.

"Realpolitik", "not a nostalgia club", but "developing nations deserve their time on the security council". Yes, let's all take turns so everyone gets a go Roll Eyes

. There are no losers, everyone gets a prize...

It's becoming pretty obvious you have an axe to grind with the UK. Here is a fact that anyone who follows world affairs will tell you; The UK are not going to be pushed off the security council if Scotland breaks away, and they sure as hell are not going to get pushed off by the USA. There is nothing that even suggest such a scenario being possible. You are simply arguing for something you want to see happen, not something that is even remotely likely to happen.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Brexit - the demographic issue
Reply #265 - Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:37am

Quantum wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:34am:

"Realpolitik", "not a nostalgia club", but "developing nations deserve their time on the security council". Yes, let's all take turns so everyone gets a go Roll Eyes

. There are no losers, everyone gets a prize...

Are you suggesting the emerging nations of India and Brazil are losers?

Even the P5 don't hold that view.

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Marla

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Re: Brexit - the demographic issue
Reply #266 - Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:39am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:29am:

That sounds a bit like one of those American conspiracy theories about the UK and the British monarchy wanting to take back the colonies!

Maynard Keynes would have disagreed with you... He went to Washington after WW2 to demand that the US forgive the debt owed to the US by Britain (which was bankrupt) based on the argument that Britain stuck it out alone against Hitler... Truman thought otherwise!

Britain didn't pay of the debt, I believe until the early 2000s.

Nothing conspiratorial about it. The tentacles of Wall Street stretch all the way back to the UK's Square Mile.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Brexit - the demographic issue
Reply #267 - Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:44am

Marla wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:39am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:29am:

That sounds a bit like one of those American conspiracy theories about the UK and the British monarchy wanting to take back the colonies!

Maynard Keynes would have disagreed with you... He went to Washington after WW2 to demand that the US forgive the debt owed to the US by Britain (which was bankrupt) based on the argument that Britain stuck it out alone against Hitler... Truman thought otherwise!

Britain didn't pay of the debt, I believe until the early 2000s.

Nothing conspiratorial about it. The tentacles of Wall Street stretch all the way back to the UK's Square Mile.

I guess control is which side of the pond the business end (the head) of the tentacles lie...

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Quantum

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Re: Brexit - the demographic issue
Reply #268 - Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:55am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:37am:

Quantum wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:34am:

"Realpolitik", "not a nostalgia club", but "developing nations deserve their time on the security council". Yes, let's all take turns so everyone gets a go Roll Eyes

. There are no losers, everyone gets a prize...

Are you suggesting the emerging nations of India and Brazil are losers?

Even the P5 don't hold that view.

No, I'm saying that while you're all security council is serious stuff! There are no allies. Serious, serious, serious!, at the same time you're arguing that others deserve their go, like its a ride at a kids play ground Roll Eyes

.

Of course the security council is serious! That's why the USA would never push to have a nation like the UK who they have worked closely with in security matters for over 70 years with a nation like Brazil. It makes no sense, and you haven't made any arguments other than the UK is irrelevant without Scotland, and Brazil deserve a go.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Brexit - the demographic issue
Reply #269 - Jun 27^th, 2016 at 7:01am

Quantum wrote on Jun 27^th, 2016 at 1:55am:

No, I'm saying that while you're all security council is serious stuff! There are no allies. Serious, serious, serious!, at the same time you're arguing that others deserve their go, like its a ride at a kids play ground Roll Eyes

.

Of course the security council is serious! That's why the USA would never push to have a nation like the UK who they have worked closely with in security matters for over 70 years with a nation like Brazil. It makes no sense, and you haven't made any arguments other than the UK is irrelevant without Scotland, and Brazil deserve a go.

All 5 permanent members support India's membership of the security council as a permanent member because they accept that India is significant enough to effect a contribution to world peace and security, so no one is suggesting it is a playground... Their view is driven by reality not nostalgia or sentimentality.

China's only apparent caveat is that India not support Japan in any bid to become a permanent member.

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